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    (Original post by Hylean)
    Stop judging Lib because he's from another part of the UK.
    i'm not.
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    (Original post by Hylean)
    You inferred that I thought you were an outsider. There's nothing in my statement which suggests I have any opinion on you being an insider or outsider. The fact you so easily suggest that Unionism/Loyalism can be simply equated to British Nationalism shows that you don't understand it all. Like I said, it's much more complicated than that, unfortunately
    Ok, see now you too are getting confused. I NEVER said unionism is british nationalism such as the BNP. What I was saying is that irish nationalism and unionism is pretty much a parallel. They both want to be part of the state which the nationally identifiy with.

    I'll be more clear then, I got the jest from your first sentence of your first comment that you thought I was an outsider. Not you said I was. I never easily suggested unionism is equated to britsih nationalism.
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    I come from Omagh and I'm absolutely disguisted by this. The IRA need to realise that people don't want to be dragged back into the troubles. They need to move on and see that this kind of behaviour is achieving nothing. It was such a waste of young life.
    and to do this in Omagh.. as if the town hasn't already been through enough with the bomb in 1998. and to add insult to injury the guilty people will never be caught. I do have to say though, this murder has had the opposite effect that they hoped.. all the community (both sides) are unified in contempt for these killers. But I hope the SCUM that did this get what they deserve be it in hell for from karma (or someone with a baseball bat). I only hope that Ronan didn't die in vain, and we can all move forward and Catholics won't be deterred form joining the PSNI, and hopefully NI can get rid of all the terrorist *******s (on both sides).. though that might be difficult as some are in government..
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    (Original post by L i b)
    '
    PS I saw your comment before you deleted it. And can assure you that I have studied the politics of this country and am quite confident in the area. Yes my politics my not stretch across into English politics etc. But at least I can admit that, instead of thinking that if you are educated in English politics you are automatically an expert in Irish politics...not the case here.
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    (Original post by bestofyou)
    PS I saw your comment before you deleted it. And can assure you that I have studied the politics of this country and am quite confident in the area. Yes my politics my not stretch across into English politics etc. But at least I can admit that, instead of thinking that if you are educated in English politics you are automatically an expert in Irish politics...not the case here.
    I thought you weren't judging him for being an outsider? Lib is actually well versed in Northern Irish politics, as I know well from having many debates with him. Obviously, there are certain things he doesn't understand, but that's more cultural than political and also from his desire not to understand, which is within us all.


    (Original post by bestofyou)
    Ok, see now you too are getting confused. I NEVER said unionism is british nationalism such as the BNP. What I was saying is that irish nationalism and unionism is pretty much a parallel. They both want to be part of the state which the nationally identifiy with.
    You're a ****ing idiot. Not once did I equate British Nationalism with the BNP, nor did I even suggest that you had done that. Irish Nationalism/Republicanism and Ulster Unionism/Loyalism are not parallel, the latter is not Nationalism, though it is similar on the surface. You don't even know what state they actually identify with. This is why I stated that it's far more complicated than that. For instance, Ulster Loyalists have a mentality that Britain is out to get them, that they are the last bastion of true Loyalists to the crown. They have no loyalty to the state of Britain. It's even more complicated than that, but I'm not going to get into it with you. You're so determined to prove your point that you attempt to confuse the issue with false accusations and idiocy.

    I'll be more clear then, I got the jest from your first sentence of your first comment that you thought I was an outsider. Not you said I was. I never easily suggested unionism is equated to britsih nationalism.[/QUOTE]

    I never once made a jest about or thought you were an outsider. I don't even really give a ****, as if being an outsider would actually make a difference. You've convincingly shown that you do not understand the first thing about Ulster Unionism/Loyalism, despite being an "insider", so I don't see why where someone's from makes any difference.

    Again, it's more complicated than that. Go back and do some research on Irish Nationalism/Republicanism and Ulster Unionism/Loyalism, then we can talk. No wonder Lib deleted his comment.
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    These words have different meanings and definitions in relation to the evolution of certain political groups in northern ireland, which the people of northern ireland and media use in certain contexts everyday. Although the words used may not be correct in an academic sense.

    However I think we should get back to the issue of the dissidents and use this thread as a forum for offering our condolences and disgust at what has happened to this 'Modern day hero' who wasn't long ago a student himself and paid the ultimate price to serve his community and do his bit for peace! I think you just have to look at his mothers statement, to get an idea of the type of person he was, and although she just lost her son in one of the most awful ways possible, could remain strong and demand his death wasn't in vain and urge other catholic officers to remain strong!
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    (Original post by jbeacom600)
    Serious shame for the person who negged this post!

    I wish you all the best, and hope this goes well for you, at least this good has come from this sad death.
    Cheers I have found myself glued to the news, hope others feel the way I do and hope these actions dont deter others! It must be awful for the people of Omagh and my thoughts are with your town!
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    Not again .
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    Did anyone listen to Stephen Nowlan's show on 5live last night?
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    (Original post by Hylean)
    I thought you weren't judging him for being an outsider? Lib is actually well versed in Northern Irish politics, as I know well from having many debates with him. Obviously, there are certain things he doesn't understand, but that's more cultural than political and also from his desire not to understand, which is within us all.
    how is that judging him?

    (Original post by Hylean)
    You're a ****ing idiot. Not once did I equate British Nationalism with the BNP, nor did I even suggest that you had done that. Irish Nationalism/Republicanism and Ulster Unionism/Loyalism are not parallel, the latter is not Nationalism, though it is similar on the surface. You don't even know what state they actually identify with. This is why I stated that it's far more complicated than that. For instance, Ulster Loyalists have a mentality that Britain is out to get them, that they are the last bastion of true Loyalists to the crown. They have no loyalty to the state of Britain. It's even more complicated than that, but I'm not going to get into it with you. You're so determined to prove your point that you attempt to confuse the issue with false accusations and idiocy.
    Theres no need for insults lad, not once did I say anything bad to you. First of all I'm going to igrone what you said about loyalism. I haven't said anything about loyalists yet, so why are you talking about them? So that you can show people you know the difference? Well done, (so does everyone else whose studied the topic btw), you deserve a smiley face beside your name. I said the BNP because I was talking to LIB about it. Just got confused with who I said what to. Calm down, I'm sorry. I'll have to cancel out the smiley face I gave you for that outburst.


    (Original post by Hylean)
    I never once made a jest about or thought you were an outsider. I don't even really give a ****, as if being an outsider would actually make a difference. You've convincingly shown that you do not understand the first thing about Ulster Unionism/Loyalism, despite being an "insider", so I don't see why where someone's from makes any difference.
    Doesn't matter whether you think you did/didn't make a jest towards. When I read you comment thats the message I got from it. Again, shall igrone loyalism, it wasn't mentioned. I haven't convincingly shown that I don't understand either. It makes a difference where your from because that will determine what you will be taught. I'm not going to think that many schools in England teach anything about Irish history.

    (Original post by Hylean)
    Again, it's more complicated than that. Go back and do some research on Irish Nationalism/Republicanism and Ulster Unionism/Loyalism, then we can talk. No wonder Lib deleted his comment.
    I've studied the history of this nation, so do not tell me I do not know enough. I could well know more than you for all I know. 3rd and last time, loyalism was never mentioned, sad face for you.
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    (Original post by bestofyou)
    Ok, see now you too are getting confused. I NEVER said unionism is british nationalism such as the BNP. What I was saying is that irish nationalism and unionism is pretty much a parallel. They both want to be part of the state which the nationally identifiy with.
    Not at all. I feel a civic bond to the state because it is the state that I am a part of, not because of some ridiculous fictions about common culture, blood or heritage. If the United Kingdom didn't exist, I wouldn't be bothered about creating it; if it wanted to admit new parts to it, as it has done in the past, fine; if it was to be dissolved and something better created as a consequence, I'd support it.

    Nationalism is an ideology. Just because it happens in Ireland does not make it special or exceptional. Indeed, Ireland is practically a case study in modern-day nationalism. And, for the record, I object to all forms of nationalism: not just the ones based on ethnic bigotry or blowing up policemen.
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    (Original post by bestofyou)
    They want a unified Ireland. Telling him the aren't simply isn't true and you know it. If Ireland was unified then the CIRA wouldn't be active.

    What you are saying does have some truth. As I said to the Ajita guy or what ever his name is. The dissidents have said they cannot achieve a united ireland in this climate. They are simply bombing and killing to show that NI isn't a normal society.

    Unfortunatly, if there was a unified Ireland, I'm certain there would be UVF bombs planted in the cars of Garda. Which is quite sad, really shows that no matter what happens, this nation is plagued with violence.
    They just want an excuse to kill people, it's just plain savagery. 'IRA' and Nationalism is the mask they hide behind, there are plenty of political channels to get what they want.

    The problem is, why WOULD WE join ireland? They have a crap economy, always have done and staying out of the euro is the best thing for anyone right now.

    Maybe we could have local devolved governments in each region of the UK for more independence and have respresentatives in Westminster from time to time....oh wait, we already do :rolleyes: The only difference is now, our tax goes to some stupid government in England, as opposed to and even stupider government in Ireland

    If tomorrow Northern Ireland became part of the republic these idiots wouldn't stop, they'd still find something to fight over...what would change? Nothing, theres an imaginary line somewhere south of Armagh and Tyrone that people think means something. It's just an excuse to go out and kill... Plus the majority of people in Northern Ireland are typically 'unionist', so what would you rather have? An ireland with a ****load of loyalists getting pissed off or a couple of dissidents that will be dead before too long?

    End of.
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    (Original post by L i b)
    Not at all. I feel a civic bond to the state because it is the state that I am a part of, not because of some ridiculous fictions about common culture, blood or heritage. If the United Kingdom didn't exist, I wouldn't be bothered about creating it; if it wanted to admit new parts to it, as it has done in the past, fine; if it was to be dissolved and something better created as a consequence, I'd support it.

    Nationalism is an ideology. Just because it happens in Ireland does not make it special or exceptional. Indeed, Ireland is practically a case study in modern-day nationalism. And, for the record, I object to all forms of nationalism: not just the ones based on ethnic bigotry or blowing up policemen.
    I don't see the revelance in your comment to what you quoted. I also don't care if you object to nationalism, this isn't the 'what is yor political stance and why' thread. This arguement has spiraled out of control and out of context and has the potiental to go on for days. So I'm just going to leave it here.
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    (Original post by chrislpp)
    They just want an excuse to kill people, it's just plain savagery. 'IRA' and Nationalism is the mask they hide behind, there are plenty of political channels to get what they want.

    The problem is, why WOULD WE join ireland? They have a crap economy, always have done and staying out of the euro is the best thing for anyone right now.

    Maybe we could have local governments that rule over local areas in each region of the UK to have independence and have respresentatives in Westminster from time to time....oh wait, we already do :rolleyes: The only difference is now, our tax goes to some stupid government in England, and not Ireland

    If tomorrow Northern Ireland became part of the republic these idiots wouldn't stop, they'd still find something to fight over. It's just an excuse to go out and kill. End of.
    No, they are not blood thirsty serial killers. They are just hardline nationalists who feel betrayed by Sinn Fein and the provos. It is the same the the Anglo/Irish Treaty in 1921. Pro and anti treaty forces. Only thing is instead of Dissidents vs Provos, it's the dissidents continuing the provisional campaign.

    Why would they keep fighting if Ireland was united? Thats a load of rubbish.
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    (Original post by chrislpp)
    They just want an excuse to kill people, it's just plain savagery. 'IRA' and Nationalism is the mask they hide behind, there are plenty of political channels to get what they want.
    I really think they're more than just a bunch of murderers who decide to get together to blow **** up. Look at Martin McGuiness - a former IRA head-honcho who, having retired from the terrorism game, continues to devote his life's work to the cause of Irish nationalism.

    If tomorrow Northern Ireland became part of the republic these idiots wouldn't stop, they'd still find something to fight over...what would change?
    I suspect they'd be less satisfied than they are now in many ways. At least the current Irish state can go around calling Irish Gaelic the 'national language' and pretending that everyone descends from the same cultural stock. If they had Northern Ireland within their country, then they'd have to start accepting that Ireland is not monocultural and, frankly, the Ulster Protestants have nothing to do with that strand of Irishness.
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    (Original post by bestofyou)
    No, they are not blood thirsty serial killers. They are just hardline nationalists who feel betrayed by Sinn Fein and the provos. It is the same the the Anglo/Irish Treaty in 1921. Pro and anti treaty forces. Only thing is instead of Dissidents vs Provos, it's the dissidents continuing the provisional campaign.

    Why would they keep fighting if Ireland was united? Thats a load of rubbish.
    HA, because there are thousands of protestants with Union Jacks hanging along the streets with the kerbs painted red whit and blue.

    There are kids that haven't even made it into double figures yet getting involved.

    I very much doubt the people carrying out these attacks know what the hell they are fighting for, or whether they even realise they may actually have it.

    The fact that kids as young as this are burning out buses and taxis a few minutes drive from where I am right now means that there's a generation not knowing what they are doing or why they are doing it, just brought up to believe they have to do it, without thought.

    Most of these middle-aged 'CIRA' members probably signed up to this at the verge of adulthood during the troubles and have nothing else to do ith their lives. The trouble ended and the community went on, but they chose not to benefit the world and decomission.

    It is pretty damn simple, they are murderous terrorists and should be tried as such.
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    (Original post by chrislpp)
    HA, because there are thousands of protestants with Union Jacks hanging along the streets with the kerbs painted red whit and blue.

    There are kids that haven't even made it into double figures yet getting involved.

    I very much doubt the people carrying out these attacks know what the hell they are fighting for, or whether they even realise they may actually have it.

    The fact that kids as young as this are burning out buses and taxis a few minutes drive from where I am right now means that there's a generation not knowing what they are doing or why they are doing it, just brought up to believe they have to do it, without thought.

    Most of these middle-aged 'CIRA' members probably signed up to this at the verge of adulthood during the troubles and have nothing else to do ith their lives. The trouble ended and the community went on, but they chose not to benefit the world and decomission.

    It is pretty damn simple, they are murderous terrorists and should be tried as such.
    I live in the heart of a nationalist area. There is currently a union jack flying in the middle of my town. Last Easter, and several other times during the past few years those flags where taken down, and tricolors and starry ploughs erected. The council was in no hurry to take those flags down.

    Under Dublin rule, that union jack wouldn't be there. The only union jacks and painted kerbs will be in unionist areas, where the only people who see them are those who wanted them there. Nobody will care about what flag if flying in an area they don't live.

    I'm pretty certain they have an idea of what they are fighting for. They didn't just decide to join the IRA becuase it seemed like good fun. The majority of them will be building houses, fixing cars, cutting meat etc. They have jobs like everyone else. The IRA doesn't pay a wage you know, its not like they joined to get a new career or for something to do during the week.
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    (Original post by bestofyou)
    how is that judging him?
    So, claiming that him as an outsider means he won't understand or know enough about NI isn't a judgement? How do you begin to rationalise that?

    Oh, and for your information, he's Scottish, not English, so give over about schools in "England".


    (Original post by bestofyou)
    Theres no need for insults lad, not once did I say anything bad to you. First of all I'm going to igrone what you said about loyalism. I haven't said anything about loyalists yet, so why are you talking about them? So that you can show people you know the difference? Well done, (so does everyone else whose studied the topic btw), you deserve a smiley face beside your name. I said the BNP because I was talking to LIB about it. Just got confused with who I said what to. Calm down, I'm sorry. I'll have to cancel out the smiley face I gave you for that outburst.
    Amazingly, Loyalism is a part of Ulster Unionist. The main loyalist part call themselves the Democratic Unionist Party. Much like Republicanism is a part of Irish Nationalism. You can't really talk about one without referencing the other. You can't just ignore Loyalists because they don't fit in with your tidy thoughts on Unionism. They are a part of Ulster Unionism and you have to deal with that.

    This is not to say they are the same thing; obviously Ulster Unionism and Ulster Loyalism are separate in many ways, just as Irish Nationalism and Irish Republicanism are, but they are part of the same movement and if you talk about Ulster Unionism you need to discuss Ulster Loyalism. The same applies if you want to talk about Irish Nationalism, you have to talk about Irish Republicanism.


    (Original post by bestofyou)
    Doesn't matter whether you think you did/didn't make a jest towards. When I read you comment thats the message I got from it. Again, shall igrone loyalism, it wasn't mentioned. I haven't convincingly shown that I don't understand either. It makes a difference where your from because that will determine what you will be taught. I'm not going to think that many schools in England teach anything about Irish history.
    So, basically, you're claiming I made a jest because you inferred such and somehow feel your interpretation is more relevant than mine? I didn't make a jest. That you misunderstood what I said, still doesn't make it a jest.

    Can't ignore Loyalism, like I said above, it has to be discussed if you want to discuss Ulster Unionism.

    As for schooling, many schools in the North don't teach Irish history, finding the subject slightly too close to home or volatile, especially in non-denominational schools. Schools in Britain, likewise, can teach Irish history quite happily. Furthermore, one can study Northern Irish history at university, especially when studying politics, so again, him being an outsider has no bearing on whether he has the ability to understand our country's ****ed up situation and nomenclature.


    (Original post by bestofyou)
    I've studied the history of this nation, so do not tell me I do not know enough. I could well know more than you for all I know. 3rd and last time, loyalism was never mentioned, sad face for you.
    Loyalism is part of Unionism, deal with it.

    You may have studied the history of the North, but that doesn't mean you understand. Understanding is what you're lacking, not knowledge or facts. The fact you're trying to separate Unionism and Loyalism shows me you don't truly understand.
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    As an Irish Nationalist living in Omagh, I think the murder is just a total disgrace. I'm all for a united Ireland but not for pointless murder. The bomb has brought back memories of 1998, and I know for a fact that people on both sides of the community- catholic and protestant do not want to go back to these dark days.

    I hope the people behind the attack are caught and are sentenced accordingly...
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    (Original post by Hylean)
    So, claiming that him as an outsider means he won't understand or know enough about NI isn't a judgement? How do you begin to rationalise that?

    Oh, and for your information, he's Scottish, not English, so give over about schools in "England".




    Amazingly, Loyalism is a part of Ulster Unionist. The main loyalist part call themselves the Democratic Unionist Party. Much like Republicanism is a part of Irish Nationalism. You can't really talk about one without referencing the other. You can't just ignore Loyalists because they don't fit in with your tidy thoughts on Unionism. They are a part of Ulster Unionism and you have to deal with that.

    This is not to say they are the same thing; obviously Ulster Unionism and Ulster Loyalism are separate in many ways, just as Irish Nationalism and Irish Republicanism are, but they are part of the same movement and if you talk about Ulster Unionism you need to discuss Ulster Loyalism. The same applies if you want to talk about Irish Nationalism, you have to talk about Irish Republicanism.




    So, basically, you're claiming I made a jest because you inferred such and somehow feel your interpretation is more relevant than mine? I didn't make a jest. That you misunderstood what I said, still doesn't make it a jest.

    Can't ignore Loyalism, like I said above, it has to be discussed if you want to discuss Ulster Unionism.

    As for schooling, many schools in the North don't teach Irish history, finding the subject slightly too close to home or volatile, especially in non-denominational schools. Schools in Britain, likewise, can teach Irish history quite happily. Furthermore, one can study Northern Irish history at university, especially when studying politics, so again, him being an outsider has no bearing on whether he has the ability to understand our country's ****ed up situation and nomenclature.




    Loyalism is part of Unionism, deal with it.

    You may have studied the history of the North, but that doesn't mean you understand. Understanding is what you're lacking, not knowledge or facts. The fact you're trying to separate Unionism and Loyalism shows me you don't truly understand.
    You know fine rightly that Loyalists over here a refered to as militants. Yes its literal diffinition is not that. But thats what it offen refers to.

    And it is possible to talk about unionism without loyalism the same way it is possible to talk about nationalism but not republicanism. Yes you can't give a full detailed explaination about it. But thats not what we are trying to do here. In fact, I'm not even sure what it is we are doing. This is a rather stupid and pointless argument.lol
 
 
 
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