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There would be MUCH fewer drunken fights if everyone pulled on a night out watch

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    (Original post by moody_bum)
    I have discovered nothing which tells me that the levels of serotonin we make when we eat are even equal to those of alcohol consumption. In fact many articles have told me quite the contrary, explaining that the closest serotonin gets to the rate due to alcohol is in very high carb diets.

    Most countries of the world do not binge drink at the rate we do.
    you haven't done much research then...
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    (Original post by Drewski)
    There would be MUCH fewer drunken fights if...


    ...most people didn't turn into idiots when drunk.
    This ^
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    (Original post by py0alb)
    you haven't done much research then...
    LOL
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    Ask anyone who works on the door and they will tell you the majority of fights relate to sexual jealousy (usually with men). That is why safety/security experts advise men and women to avoid pubs/clubs where men outnumber women.
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    (Original post by speir)
    because they feel they have the right to act like a prat when they drink as that is what they feel is expected. It's these same idiots who go and cheat or grope and blame it on being "drunk" .
    It is true alcohol lowers your inhibitions slightly but it is no excuse for fighting cheating etc. The majority of people can control themselves its only neanderthals who can't.
    I'm in no way condoning the behaviour, of course it is wrong and ridiculous. If people can't control themselves, they shouldn't drink, I'm merely saying facts as I see them.
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    (Original post by py0alb)
    That's not what the evidence suggests. I suppose the research you have done in reading the Daily Mail means that you know better than the scientists who study this issue in a rigorous manner. Your account of your own experiences are heavily biased and almost certainly inaccurately interpreted.
    You resort to implying I'm stupid because I don't agree with you? Mature.

    How is it in any way biased? Yes, I really want to encourage and prove the fact that drinking alcohol leads to mindless violence. Not sure how I will in any way gain from this, but of course, your ego means that you must be right....:rolleyes:

    This is reality as I have experienced it. You cannot deny that this happens when it so obviously does. The reasoning behind it is somewhat irrelevant, the fact is, it does happen.
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    (Original post by py0alb)
    Cheers!

    Basically the link is to a study that highlighted that a certain extremely small sector of society were predisposed to become violent after drinking alcohol lowered their inhibitions, and it has a virtually negligible effect on the rest of us. This is exactly the phenonenon I was describing above.

    There are 10,000 more studies out there that show it in even more concrete detail.
    Then what are you arguing about?

    Alcohol causes a significant minority of people to become more violent, i think we all agree. :confused:
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    (Original post by DiZZeeKiD)
    I'm in no way condoning the behaviour, of course it is wrong and ridiculous. If people can't control themselves, they shouldn't drink, I'm merely saying facts as I see them.
    I entirely agree with this statement. However my personal experience sits alongside the scientific data, in that it seems to me that the vast, vast, vast majority of people who go out and drink are able to do so without becoming aggressive or getting into a fight. There is just something about "us" (ie the majority) who simply do not become violent no matter how much alcohol we have had. Those that do become violent do so because there is something intrinsically aggressive about them.

    If you did a poll out of TSR users as to how many had ever started a fight (in the unlikely event people were truthful) the percentage who said yes would be very low, like 2 or 3%. I don't personally know anyone out of my many various friends who has ever started a fight. As to why your experience is different? :dontknow:
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    (Original post by n00)
    Then what are you arguing about?

    Alcohol causes a significant minority of people to become more violent, i think we all agree. :confused:
    We are arguing about the validity of the statement "alcohol makes you violent, and if we replaced it with another drug then late night city centre violence would decrease". I maintain its an invalid statement because it clearly suggests that the "you" in question applies to everyone rather than just a small minority, and the statement "alcohol lowers your inhibitions" is more accurate. Any other drug that lowers your inhibitions, if taken in the same circumstances, would have the same effect. Jesus, even merely thinking that you're drinking alcohol makes people more violent than actually drinking alcohol - so perhaps we should conclude that alcohol actually supresses violent tendencies? :cool:

    For you to become demonstrably aggressive (and hence violent) after drinking alcohol you have to be feeling (perhaps sunconsciously) aggressive beforehand. Happy well-adjusted people don't drink 10 pints and suddenly decide to glass someone in the face, they have to be intrinsically violent and aggressive people in the first place.
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    (Original post by py0alb)
    I entirely agree with this statement. However my personal experience sits alongside the scientific data, in that it seems to me that the vast, vast, vast majority of people who go out and drink are able to do so without becoming aggressive or getting into a fight. There is just something about "us" (ie the majority) who simply do not become violent no matter how much alcohol we have had. Those that do become violent do so because there is something intrinsically aggressive about them.

    If you did a poll out of TSR users as to how many had ever started a fight (in the unlikely event people were truthful) the percentage who said yes would be very low, like 2 or 3%. I don't personally know anyone out of my many various friends who has ever started a fight. As to why your experience is different? :dontknow:
    I'd agree with this to an extent, ie those people most likely to start a fight when drunk are also those most likely to start a fight when sober. Therefore, it is the individual that is the issue and not the alcohol. This may be, but it does not however disprove the fact that when intoxicated, the likelihood that such individuals will become involved in, or initiatve, aggressive behaviour increases.

    As to why my experience is different? Maybe I just associate with deliquent, undesirable characters.....lols.
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    (Original post by DiZZeeKiD)
    I'd agree with this to an extent, ie those people most likely to start a fight when drunk are also those most likely to start a fight when sober. Therefore, it is the individual that is the issue and not the alcohol. This may be, but it does not however disprove the fact that when intoxicated, the likelihood that such individuals will become involved in, or initiatve, aggressive behaviour increases.

    As to why my experience is different? Maybe I just associate with deliquent, undesirable characters.....lols.
    I see you live in Milton Keynes...

    I blame it entirely on the individual, with a helping of blame going to the right wing press and their obsession with portraying alcohol as a violence inducing drug. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy - the more people think that its normative behaviour to become violent after drinking, the more people who will become violent after drinking. Hundreds of studies have demonstrated this sociological phenomenon.

    The best thing we can do to reduce alcohol related violence is to educate people that its NOT normal to become aggressive after drinking alcohol. Being drunk is not an excuse for aggressive behaviour. Being drunk should make you happy and chilled out.
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    (Original post by py0alb)
    I maintain its an invalid statement because it clearly suggests that the "you" in question applies to everyone rather than just a small minority, and the statement "alcohol lowers your inhibitions" is more accurate. I maintain its an invalid statement because it clearly suggests that the "you" in question applies to everyone rather than just a small minority, and the statement "alcohol lowers your inhibitions" is more accurate.
    a little pedantic but fair enough.

    (Original post by py0alb)
    Any other drug that lowers your inhibitions, if taken in the same circumstances, would have the same effect.
    Rubbish. Now whos over simplifying it.

    (Original post by py0alb)
    Jesus, even merely thinking that you're drinking alcohol makes people more violent than actually drinking alcohol - so perhaps we should conclude that alcohol actually supresses violent tendencies? :cool
    But is their conditioned response not related to their previous experience of alcohol?
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    (Original post by py0alb)
    I see you live in Milton Keynes...

    I blame it entirely on the individual, with a helping of blame going to the right wing press and their obsession with portraying alcohol as a violence inducing drug. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy - the more people think that its normative behaviour to become violent after drinking, the more people who will become violent after drinking. Hundreds of studies have demonstrated this sociological phenomenon.

    The best thing we can do to reduce alcohol related violence is to educate people that its NOT normal to become aggressive after drinking alcohol. Being drunk is not an excuse for aggressive behaviour. Being drunk should make you happy and chilled out.
    Enough said!

    I know what you’re saying but you could apply this to other elements of behaviour when drinking. Being drunk lowers inhibitions in general, it can make some people more promiscuous, some people more loud and obnoxious, and so on – would you discourage drinking for all these reasons too? Or should people be allowed to a certain extent, to act more outlandishly when drunk? Surely this is the reason why some people drink – to increase confidence. Should any changes in behaviour when drinking be discouraged, especially as most times this is unpredictable? You say drinking "should make you happy and chilled out" but obviously it doesn't have this effect on everyone....
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    (Original post by n00)
    a little pedantic but fair enough.

    Rubbish. Now whos over simplifying it.

    But is their conditioned response not related to their previous experience of alcohol?
    Not necessarily their own experiences, but the portrayal of alcohol that they are exposed to. Think about it: most people don't drink until their late teens, by which time they have been exposed to various (often completely inaccurate) portrayals of the effects of alcohol for years and years. If you tell a kid for 10 straight years that alcohol makes you violent and then one day give him loads of alcohol, how do you think it will make him behave? Its not rocket science.

    The problem is that the behaviour of a few unpleasant people after drinking alcohol, combined with ignorant stereotyping creates the socially normative expectation that alcohol is the cause of the violence problem, and then combine that with the sexually competitive atmosphere inherent in nightclub situations that the OP touches on, and you're going to get a snowball effect of aggressive masculine behaviour. The best thing we can do to eliminate this is educate people as to the real biological effects of alcohol, and most importantly educate people that alcohol is not directly to blame for the actions of a violent minority.


    I don't think its oversimplifying matters to say that any other drug with the same biological effects and in the same social circumstances should have the same outcome, depending, of course, upon how people expect the drug to make them act.
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    (Original post by DiZZeeKiD)
    Enough said!

    I know what you’re saying but you could apply this to other elements of behaviour when drinking. Being drunk lowers inhibitions in general, it can make some people more promiscuous, some people more loud and obnoxious, and so on – would you discourage drinking for all these reasons too? Or should people be allowed to a certain extent, to act more outlandishly when drunk? Surely this is the reason why some people drink – to increase confidence. Should any changes in behaviour when drinking be discouraged, especially as most times this is unpredictable? You say drinking "should make you happy and chilled out" but obviously it doesn't have this effect on everyone....
    I wouldn't discourage drinking for any of those reasons. I think drinking alcohol actually has an overall positive net effect on British society with its history of stress relief and increased social interaction. I wholeheartedly encourage drinking in moderation (and sometimes not so much moderation as long as you're not a complete prick liable to get violent at the drop of a hat).

    I think its fine if people act more outlandishly, I simply think that if people do break the law then they should accept the full responsibility for their actions, and we as a society shouldn't hypocritically blame "the demon drink" for their behaviour before going out for a pint ourselves.
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    (Original post by py0alb)
    Not necessarily their own experiences, but the portrayal of alcohol that they are exposed to. Think about it: most people don't drink until their late teens, by which time they have been exposed to various (often completely inaccurate) portrayals of the effects of alcohol for years and years. If you tell a kid for 10 straight years that alcohol makes you violent and then one day give him loads of alcohol, how do you think it will make him behave? Its not rocket science.

    The problem is that the behaviour of a few unpleasant people after drinking alcohol, combined with ignorant stereotyping creates the socially normative expectation that alcohol is the cause of the violence problem, and then combine that with the sexually competitive atmosphere inherent in nightclub situations that the OP touches on, and you're going to get a snowball effect of aggressive masculine behaviour. The best thing we can do to eliminate this is educate people as to the real biological effects of alcohol, and most importantly educate people that alcohol is not directly to blame for the actions of a violent minority.
    Of course, i just don't think it can be put down purely as a placebo effect as a result of what society tells them to expect.

    (Original post by py0alb)
    I don't think its oversimplifying matters to say that any other drug with the same biological effects and in the same social circumstances should have the same outcome, depending, of course, upon how people expect the drug to make them act.
    That’s not what you said though, and it’s not exactly saying much to say any drug that works exactly the same as alcohol should have the same effect as alcohol.
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    (Original post by py0alb)
    I wouldn't discourage drinking for any of those reasons. I think drinking alcohol actually has an overall positive net effect on British society with its history of stress relief and increased social interaction. I wholeheartedly encourage drinking in moderation (and sometimes not so much moderation as long as you're not a complete prick liable to get violent at the drop of a hat).

    I think its fine if people act more outlandishly, I simply think that if people do break the law then they should accept the full responsibility for their actions, and we as a society shouldn't hypocritically blame "the demon drink" for their behaviour before going out for a pint ourselves.
    Agreed.

    In conclusion, hooray for drinking
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    (Original post by n00)
    Of course, i just don't think it can be put down purely as a placebo effect as a result of what society tells them to expect.

    That’s not what you said though, and it’s not exactly saying much to say any drug that works exactly the same as alcohol should have the same effect as alcohol.
    I don't think we're really disagreeing now. Anyway, I think the original statement that I contested was that if we replaced alcohol by <insert another drug> then all our city centre violence problems would virtually disappear. I think that's a ridiculous statement. Its hard to judge exactly what would happen, but I very much doubt they would drop significantly.

    I think the problem is blown out of all proportion anyway. I hardly ever see a fight.
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    If no one drank or went out, there wouldn't be any fights either. Just like yours, it isn't an acheivable solution is it?
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    (Original post by James4d)
    If everyone took mdma or weed before clubbing everyone would have an amazing time, and there would be no violence or even sexual harassment (I'd say guys harassing girls in a club is more of an issue than violence, cos it happens all the time). But ofc, those drugs are illegal, so we're forced to get the expensive one that makes us violent..
    Quoted for truth!
 
 
 
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