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    (Original post by arabcnesbit)
    That may be an argument if the government were still heavily subsidising the fees, but they aren't any more so these subsidies are coming directly from some students to others by the way of blanket fees, which I still contest is unfair.
    They do still subsidize fees - really quite heavily for medicine, a bit for sciences and not at all for humanities.

    With regards to whether humanities students are actually paying for the science students directly... this may be true to an extent. The main reason for that is simply because they can - it does not deter people from applying as much as, say, 25K fees would for medicine.

    (Original post by arabcnesbit)
    Also, how does subsidising courses whose graduates are heavily recruited by the public sector help the economy?
    Well it saves the government money. As i say, to get the same quality applicants in the context of huge fees would require a much greater increase in the wage of doctors. Paying for med students fees is a highly efficient way to recruit better doctors.

    The army does the same thing, and private businesses do as well - they will pay for their employees training in the knowledge that providing this will improve the quality of staff at a cheaper cost than increasing salaries.
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    (Original post by arabcnesbit)
    To be honest I don't see how some courses can cost £9,000 a year to fund. One of my flat mates studies History and has 8 lectures a week for 24 weeks of the year. Are you really telling me it costs going on £50 per person per lecture when there are going on 300 people in each lecture? That's almost £15,000 per lecture they're making. I call rip off.
    I think you drastically underestimate what it takes to put a university together as a whole. What a history student get from a university is not only lectures lol. A fraction of the things that will need to be funded for this particular student:

    -Construction of all facilities, including lecture halls, admin buildings, halls, leisure facilities, grounds
    -maintenance of the above, including cleaners, building works, gardeners etc
    -all of the admin staff's wages such as admissions, access, senior staff including those responsible to maintaining quality of teaching, accountants
    -funding access programmes
    - welfare team - councillors, other welfare staff, medical staff such as nurses
    -leisure facilities - does the uni have a swimming pool, a gym, a student union, a sports ground (possibly including things like tennis courts etc)? Even if membership has to be paid, it will be heavily subsidised.
    -security, including producing student cards
    -libraries
    -university journal subscriptions

    I've no doubt forgotten a whole host of behind the scenes roles. This is where a lot of every student's money goes. Its not just lectures and test tubes.
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    (Original post by Josh_Dey)
    Basically:
    £9000
    £9000
    £9000
    £9000
    £9000
    £9000
    £9000
    £9000 and so on...
    :eek: what do you get blue gems for? they're so magical :eyeball:
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    (Original post by nexttime)
    They do still subsidize fees - really quite heavily for medicine, a bit for sciences and not at all for humanities.

    With regards to whether humanities students are actually paying for the science students directly... this may be true to an extent. The main reason for that is simply because they can - it does not deter people from applying as much as, say, 25K fees would for medicine.



    Well it saves the government money. As i say, to get the same quality applicants in the context of huge fees would require a much greater increase in the wage of doctors. Paying for med students fees is a highly efficient way to recruit better doctors.

    The army does the same thing, and private businesses do as well - they will pay for their employees training in the knowledge that providing this will improve the quality of staff at a cheaper cost than increasing salaries.
    Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. My apologies. I don't want any subsidies. I thought that since I was aware international fees for medicine are around £25k and home fees £9000 it would have been obvious I was aware that the government are still subsidising certain courses. Although I just read back the post you quoted and It didn't come across that way.

    What I meant was that since the government has heavily decreased the subsidies to the universities then it means the universities are redistributing more of the fees from some students to others directly and this is unfair.

    How does it save the government money? If they subsidise fees then they are losing income from students and are taxing other people to pay for this so it's a double whammy. If you include the money it costs to enact this system then a triple whammy. Your example for the private sector holds, but as soon as you include government spending it doesn't add up.

    I think where we differ greatly here is that you believe an increase in fees will mean less able people will apply and I don't see how this would be the case. If someone wanted to be a doctor but the fees were cheaper for horticulture, do you think they would sign up and start growing things in their back garden?


    (Original post by nexttime)
    I think you drastically underestimate what it takes to put a university together as a whole. What a history student get from a university is not only lectures lol. A fraction of the things that will need to be funded for this particular student:

    -Construction of all facilities, including lecture halls, admin buildings, halls, leisure facilities, grounds
    -maintenance of the above, including cleaners, building works, gardeners etc
    -all of the admin staff's wages such as admissions, access, senior staff including those responsible to maintaining quality of teaching, accountants
    -funding access programmes
    - welfare team - councillors, other welfare staff, medical staff such as nurses
    -leisure facilities - does the uni have a swimming pool, a gym, a student union, a sports ground (possibly including things like tennis courts etc)? Even if membership has to be paid, it will be heavily subsidised.
    -security, including producing student cards
    -libraries
    -university journal subscriptions

    I've no doubt forgotten a whole host of behind the scenes roles. This is where a lot of every student's money goes. Its not just lectures and test tubes.
    Come on. Obviously I realise there are more costs to a university than a building and a lecturer.

    Still don't think it would cost £9,000 for certain courses though.
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    (Original post by arabcnesbit)
    What I meant was that since the government has heavily decreased the subsidies to the universities then it means the universities are redistributing more of the fees from some students to others directly and this is unfair.
    Sciences are not getting an increased proportion of overall funding than before - all that is changing is where the money is coming from. I thought you were against all subsidies, even if it is government sourced?

    (Original post by arabcnesbit)
    How does it save the government money? If they subsidise fees then they are losing income from students and are taxing other people to pay for this so it's a double whammy. If you include the money it costs to enact this system then a triple whammy. Your example for the private sector holds, but as soon as you include government spending it doesn't add up.

    I think where we differ greatly here is that you believe an increase in fees will mean less able people will apply and I don't see how this would be the case. If someone wanted to be a doctor but the fees were cheaper for horticulture, do you think they would sign up and start growing things in their back garden?.
    I think to say that £25,000 fees will not deter medical applicants is ridiculous, and less applicants will mean reduced quality of doctors.

    Of course such a move would save money. However, f you wanted to maintain the standard of healthcare, you would have to increase the wage of doctors by a far greater amount. Like i say, its effectively part of the wage packet - if our fees were not covered, we would get paid a lot more. If we were not paid more, some of us would not apply in the first place.

    (Original post by arabcnesbit)
    Come on. Obviously I realise there are more costs to a university than a building and a lecturer.

    Still don't think it would cost £9,000 for certain courses though.
    I thought that you were exaggerating, yes - its still not what you said though (and you went to the extent of doing some dodgy maths to make this completely exaggerated point!).

    I'm not sure how to find out how much a humanity degree costs when you factor in all other facilities - uni financial costs tend to just be broken down to 'staff' and 'other'. If it is under £9,000 (may well be), i doubt its is all that much under.

    EDIT: looking at the financial statement for Leeds Met, it does have more detailed breakdowns, but which costs apply to sciences and which to humanities is difficult to tell. Things like 'materials' are probably more scientific, but then not exclusively, and is the, say, furniture bill equally spread? Who knows.
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    (Original post by nexttime)
    Sciences are not getting an increased proportion of overall funding than before - all that is changing is where the money is coming from. I thought you were against all subsidies, even if it is government sourced?



    I think to say that £25,000 fees will not deter medical applicants is ridiculous, and less applicants will mean reduced quality of doctors.

    Of course such a move would save money. However, f you wanted to maintain the standard of healthcare, you would have to increase the wage of doctors by a far greater amount. Like i say, its effectively part of the wage packet - if our fees were not covered, we would get paid a lot more. If we were not paid more, some of us would not apply in the first place.



    I thought that you were exaggerating, yes - its still not what you said though (and you went to the extent of doing some dodgy maths to make this completely exaggerated point!).

    I'm not sure how to find out how much a humanity degree costs when you factor in all other facilities - uni financial costs tend to just be broken down to 'staff' and 'other'. If it is under £9,000 (may well be), i doubt its is all that much under.

    EDIT: looking at the financial statement for Leeds Met, it does have more detailed breakdowns, but which costs apply to sciences and which to humanities is difficult to tell. Things like 'materials' are probably more scientific, but then not exclusively, and is the, say, furniture bill equally spread? Who knows.
    We're starting to go round in circles here so lets just agree to disagree.

    Maybe I'm just narky because I've got 3 assignments due in tomorrow and the rest of the country seems to be revelling in the lovely weather.

    Enjoy the rest of the day.
 
 
 
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