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    (Original post by hatemylife)
    I'm not sure I believe love exists. I don't understand it, which isn't why I don't believe in it, but I do not believe that there is either some mystical joining of two humans, or that anyone could truly be so genuinely selfless for another.
    No one believes there is a mystical joining of two humans :lol:

    Most people know love is just a chemical in your brain making you feel attached to that person so you can protect them/ procreate with them. It's a psychological construct for a biological purpose.

    If you couldn't produce this chemical (thought to be oxytocin) then you wouldn't be able to fall in love.
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    (Original post by hatemylife)
    I'm a little bit jarred by your saying that I might benefit from reading it. It suggests that I need remedying. From your post, it sounds as though Lewis and I are singing from the same hymn sheet, albeit in slightly different keys I don't think there is a redemption in that selfish goings-on are still essentially love. I similarly don't concur that true selflessness is rare - it's non-existent!

    When you mention Jane Eyre, I think of a haven for the idea of love, along with any other Bronte, of Austen for that matter, novels. 'Love' is truly the preserve of idealistic spinsters and poets. Even in those days, love rarely existed, certainly, marriages were almost never based upon love...
    Sincere apologies if I came across as saying you need remedying! I do but that wasn't the point I was trying to make :p: I agree that you are singing from the same hymn sheet but in different keys and that's why I suggested the book: I thought it would interest you, if you could get past the Christian stuff (if that's something that would bother you). I didn't mean it to come across as "YOU'RE WRONG, READ THIS BOOK" :o:

    I think the love in novels has to come from somewhere and that once you experience love for yourself, you might feel differently about it I'd be interested to hear how you explain maternal/paternal love from people who aren't your parents. Not as in adoptive or foster parents but people who have nothing to do with your upbringing or even looking after you, but who love you as if you were their child :yes:
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    (Original post by hatemylife)
    Not lying, but certainly misguided.
    So what do you think they are feeling?
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    (Original post by The_Lonely_Goatherd)
    Sincere apologies if I came across as saying you need remedying! I do but that wasn't the point I was trying to make :p: I agree that you are singing from the same hymn sheet but in different keys and that's why I suggested the book: I thought it would interest you, if you could get past the Christian stuff (if that's something that would bother you). I didn't mean it to come across as "YOU'RE WRONG, READ THIS BOOK" :o:

    I think the love in novels has to come from somewhere and that once you experience love for yourself, you might feel differently about it I'd be interested to hear how you explain maternal/paternal love from people who aren't your parents. Not as in adoptive or foster parents but people who have nothing to do with your upbringing or even looking after you, but who love you as if you were their child :yes:
    I've never really come across people who love others as their child. Not even heard of cases of this. I'm sure, however, that in most instances the child in the equation had a less than satisfactory upbringing, and I would, without any foundation or reasoning, suggest that this 'relationship' was largely motivated out of pity.
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    (Original post by hatemylife)
    I've never really come across people who love others as their child. Not even heard of cases of this. I'm sure, however, that in most instances the child in the equation had a less than satisfactory upbringing, and I would, without any foundation or reasoning, suggest that this 'relationship' was largely motivated out of pity.
    I have such a relationship, hence my interest
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    (Original post by The_Lonely_Goatherd)
    I have such a relationship, hence my interest
    This is in no way reflective on your situation, and I hope, once again, I don't come across as inordinately offensive, but if I were in that position I would wonder what they are getting from it. I'd ponder on what motivates them, because I certainly wouldn't owe to selfless love.
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    (Original post by hatemylife)
    This is in no way reflective on your situation, and I hope, once again, I don't come across as inordinately offensive, but if I were in that position I would wonder what they are getting from it. I'd ponder on what motivates them, because I certainly wouldn't owe to selfless love.
    Oh I've no doubt we both have some selfish motives for it and she no doubt gets something from it To my mind at least though, that doesn't account for everything and I don't think that means it's not love. That's coz I don't take your very strict definition though
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    (Original post by The_Lonely_Goatherd)
    Oh I've no doubt we both have some selfish motives for it and she no doubt gets something from it To my mind at least though, that doesn't account for everything and I don't think that means it's not love. That's coz I don't take your very strict definition though
    Oh, I thought you were the younger one in the situation. What makes you love them, then? Or are you? Too much ambiguity :eek:
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    (Original post by hatemylife)
    Oh, I thought you were the younger one in the situation. What makes you love them, then? Or are you? Too much ambiguity :eek:
    I am the younger one in the situation :yes: I'm not entirely sure why she loves me. I've no doubt she wants a daughter and that that accounts for some of it, but I don't think it can really account for all of it :nah: Even if it did, I don't see why it can't be called love, just because it has selfish motivations. You talk about the influence of novels: I think this idea that love should be completely selfless is one and that if it's not 100% selfless, it isn't love, comes from books and films. At least that's where I learnt it :yes:
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    (Original post by The_Lonely_Goatherd)
    I am the younger one in the situation :yes: I'm not entirely sure why she loves me. I've no doubt she wants a daughter and that that accounts for some of it, but I don't think it can really account for all of it :nah: Even if it did, I don't see why it can't be called love, just because it has selfish motivations. You talk about the influence of novels: I think this idea that love should be completely selfless is one and that if it's not 100% selfless, it isn't love, comes from books and films. At least that's where I learnt it :yes:
    I quite agree that that particular view of love comes from those sources, hence my saying that it is the preserve of dreaming poets. That said, I find it terribly difficult to accept a view that love can exist in conjunction with selfishness. To me, although I don't believe it exists due to the presence of selfishness, love and selfishness are two complete contradictions of each other. If it does exist and that the two go hand in hand, perhaps it's an emotional reflection of opposites attracting

    My overall view is, however, that selfishness if the motivation behind 'love' and as such immediately cancels out any chance of love actually existing.
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    I think the argument that even if such things are selfishly motivated they can still be called love is invalid, because most people think it is love and like the notion/feeling/state of apparent bliss they are in, but what is really happening is they are deluding themselves into thinking it's love, ignoring the undertones to all these 'selfless' acts and thus declaring it love; or saying that even if they are selfishly motivated, why can it not be love? The answer is, it cannot be love, but it can masquerade as such and fool most people. I think that's what prompts that question/view. Reading that over, it would make little to no sense to anyone else, but it is so difficult to word.

    In short, 'love' is love inasmuch as the actions are perhaps those of someone who loves you, but no true love is there.

    For instance (utilising an analogy that plagued a female friend of mine lately, I'm a guy btw. Just saying as I read someone post thinking I was a girl...) a fake handbag has all the signs of a genuine. Same designs, same material (perhaps) yet it's not the real thing.
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    (Original post by hatemylife)
    I quite agree that that particular view of love comes from those sources, hence my saying that it is the preserve of dreaming poets. That said, I find it terribly difficult to accept a view that love can exist in conjunction with selfishness. To me, although I don't believe it exists due to the presence of selfishness, love and selfishness are two complete contradictions of each other. If it does exist and that the two go hand in hand, perhaps it's an emotional reflection of opposites attracting

    My overall view is, however, that selfishness if the motivation behind 'love' and as such immediately cancels out any chance of love actually existing.
    This is why I think you might find the Lewis interesting. The introduction to The Four Loves discusses his motivations and how the book started out:

    "I still think that if all we mean by our love is a craing to be loved, we are in a very deplorable state. But I would not now say (with my master, MacDonald) that if we mean only this craving we are mistaking for love something that is not love at all. I cannot now deny the name love to Need-love...

    ... No doubt Need-love like all our impulses, can be selfishly indulged. A tyrannous and gluttonous demand for affection can be a horrible thing. But in ordinary life no one calls a child selfish because it turns for comfort to its mother; nor an adult who turns to his fellow 'for company'..."

    As others have said, I think people confuse lust and love and of course it's easy for anyone to delude themselves. That still doesn't mean it doesn't exist at all, imho :nah:
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    (Original post by Peachykeen09)
    of course it doesn't. the best thing to do is hook up with guys with no strings attached :cool:
    So pinocchio is out of the picture then?
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    (Original post by Harry.C)
    So pinocchio is out of the picture then?
    he's a real boy now
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    (Original post by Gemma :)!)
    Well; many would argue that everything we do is selfish, and that we "love" merely to secure protection for our offspring. But if that's what "love" is, then it still exists, surely? I actually feel genuinely sorry for you if you're so cynical about it, because relationships can be amazing
    Of courser relationships can be amazing, but that doesn't mean love exists.

    It's not being cynical.
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    (Original post by im so academic)
    Of courser relationships can be amazing, but that doesn't mean love exists.

    It's not being cynical.
    Love is just a label we give to our feelings towards someone or something. *shrugs*
    We could say that any of our feelings are wrongly labelled or don't exist. "Love" is so subjective; it means different things to different people so I suppose you're right in saying that "love" as a fixed emotion may not exist.
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    (Original post by hatemylife)
    Because it doesn't exist No, you're right, I never have been. Even if it does exist, I can't say I'd be one to ever find it. Not because I'm a self-loathing, self-pitying loner (although I am) but because I'm just not the sort that would open up to it and accept it if it were ever to present itself to me. So for me, it definitely doesn't exist, in a way.
    o.0 I have never read something that seemed like I had said like this little saying before :0
    I need to save this to remind myself that I'm not alone
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    Depends on your definition of love because everybody has a completely different meaning of it.
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    (Original post by Gemma :)!)
    Love is just a label we give to our feelings towards someone or something. *shrugs*
    We could say that any of our feelings are wrongly labelled or don't exist. "Love" is so subjective; it means different things to different people so I suppose you're right in saying that "love" as a fixed emotion may not exist.
    No, no, don't give me this wishy-washy subjective crap about how "it means different things".

    If that were true, one could argue that someone could love the world so much they spend their whole lives designing a nuclear bomb to end humanity. After all, people do crazy things when they're in love, right?
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    (Original post by im so academic)
    No, no, don't give me this wishy-washy subjective crap about how "it means different things".

    If that were true, one could argue that someone could love the world so much they spend their whole lives designing a nuclear bomb to end humanity. After all, people do crazy things when they're in love, right?
    There's love-based crazy, highly dangerous/criminal-based crazy and psychotic crazy. The three may all be present in some but they're not the same as each other. I should know, since I fit into two of the three categories
 
 
 
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