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    (Original post by Mad Cat Lady)
    I was going to just let this be, but I object to being called delusional. There is cruelty behind almost every human activity, that is something practically impossible to escape from, and taking a small step towards being less of a part of that cruelty makes you in no way delusional. I would kill myself if I ever had to become vegan, dairy products are too much of a part of my life.
    You said that eating dairy and eggs is a totally different thing to eating meat because the meat industry is barbaric. When you were told that the dairy and egg industries are barbaric, you changed your argument to say that you always felt that allowing some cruelty is okay, and that's why you are a vegetarian. What is that if not delusional? The very fact that you would just 'let this be' if I hadn't said you were delusional as though being proven to be wrong is nothing to take into consideration and you can just toss aside something which invalidates your position is delusional. Make whatever decisions you want but your implication was that veganism is wrong because dairy and eggs are distinct from the cruelty of the meat industry, and that is wrong.
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    If you need someone to convince you, you probably aren't going to be a vegetarian.

    Nobody should be convinced, or try to convince others. It's a decision you should assess and take on your own. Militant vegetarians do nobody any favours. And I say this as a lifelong meat shirker...
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    (Original post by JCC-MGS)
    You said that eating dairy and eggs is a totally different thing to eating meat because the meat industry is barbaric. When you were told that the dairy and egg industries are barbaric, you changed your argument to say that you always felt that allowing some cruelty is okay, and that's why you are a vegetarian. What is that if not delusional? The very fact that you would just 'let this be' if I hadn't said you were delusional as though being proven to be wrong is nothing to take into consideration and you can just toss aside something which invalidates your position is delusional. Make whatever decisions you want but your implication was that veganism is wrong because dairy and eggs are distinct from the cruelty of the meat industry, and that is wrong.
    You misunderstand me.
    1) I never said that the meat industry is barbaric, I said that for ME to kill and consume a once living creature is barbaric, which is why it would seem hypocritical if I allowed someone else to do the killing before I ate it. For someone else to milk a cow for me, I dont mind, because the action of milking a cow I do not consider cruel and I would do it myself. Sure, there's some cruelty involved, but can you imagine there being no dairy industry - every single one of those animals would need to be killed and their bodies go to waste. There would be no need for them in the world anymore, when some farms do give them good lives.

    2) You didn't "prove" me wrong, you put forward your opinion and I decided to ignore it because that was just your view, not mine, and I didn't want to start one of those boring never-getting-anywhere arguments which just puts a downer on a whole thread.

    3) I never said veganism is wrong, I said that I myself could not be a vegan, and if you have a problem with that well tough titties.
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    (Original post by Miraclefish)
    If you need someone to convince you, you probably aren't going to be a vegetarian.

    Nobody should be convinced, or try to convince others. It's a decision you should assess and take on your own. Militant vegetarians do nobody any favours. And I say this as a lifelong meat shirker...
    Tell me sir, what is a "meat shirker"?
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    Well, I love meat and I'm very healthy. I don't intend to be a vegetarian ever, but I think that if you feel that way, you shouldn't eat meat then. I wouldn't, if I felt that way. It's not right to go against yourself or what you really feel like It's not how we can stay truly satisfied with ourselves. Being a vegan is not about eating salad all your life, as the first impression is so to many who don't have any idea about what being a vegan is about. Go for it!!
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    (Original post by Mad Cat Lady)
    Tell me sir, what is a "meat shirker"?
    I'm thinking its someone who doesn't like meat. If you shirk away from something, doesn't that mean you avoid it?
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    (Original post by Mad Cat Lady)
    You misunderstand me.
    1) I never said that the meat industry is barbaric, I said that for ME to kill and consume a once living creature is barbaric, which is why it would seem hypocritical if I allowed someone else to do the killing before I ate it. For someone else to milk a cow for me, I dont mind, because the action of milking a cow I do not consider cruel and I would do it myself. Sure, there's some cruelty involved, but can you imagine there being no dairy industry - every single one of those animals would need to be killed and their bodies go to waste. There would be no need for them in the world anymore, when some farms do give them good lives.

    2) You didn't "prove" me wrong, you put forward your opinion and I decided to ignore it because that was just your view, not mine, and I didn't want to start one of those boring never-getting-anywhere arguments which just puts a downer on a whole thread.

    3) I never said veganism is wrong, I said that I myself could not be a vegan, and if you have a problem with that well tough titties.
    I don't understand that logic. If you couldn't kill an animal because it is barbaric, why isn't the meat industry barbaric? :holmes: Same result isn't it?

    And as for the milking the cow issue not being cruel, you aren't seeing the big picture. You are just focusing on the 'nice' bit and ignoring the reason why the cow is producing milk in the first place and the reason why the calf isn't around to drink it.

    Also, a world without dairy is possible to imagine as we aren't meant to drink milk. It's not designed for us and we don't need it. Especially as there are so many alternatives. I know loads of people who aren't even vegetarians/vegans and have cut out dairy for the heath benefits.
    The farming industry is like every other business and relies on supply and demand. If the demand for dairy decreased, less dairy cows would be bred and used for milk production. They won't keep churning out high volumes of dairy if they are making a loss. So no, it wouldn't be an immediate mass slaughter of all the dairy cows it would be a gradual decrease over time.
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    If you at least give up (or even reduce) red meat, you'll be saving the environment and living a healthier lifestyle
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    (Original post by ihatebrownbread)
    It's more healthier being vegetarian as it has been proved that vegetrians are more likely to live longer. So maybe that might help you
    This is a ridiculously stupid, over simplistic and idiotic post. You should be ashamed of yourself.
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    Been a veggie since I was 4 years old (Yep, Made that choice by myself!) and I could never dream of eating meat again, It feels extremely unnatural!
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    It's like being environmentally friendly....you not driving a car isn't going to save the earth.

    Seriously just live your life the way you want and if you want bacon eat bacon and don't think of piglets!
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    (Original post by Xyls)
    Been a veggie since I was 4 years old (Yep, Made that choice by myself!) and I could never dream of eating meat again, It feels extremely unnatural!
    What are you typing on?
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    To all the nay sayers, if policy is ever going to be changed then it will require people to be vegetarian and vegan. Moreover, if there's a group of people not eating meat, dairy or eggs, that will again, take man power. Whether it makes a difference right now, or will hit the demand part of supply and demand later, is debatable. We don't know if the demand for meat would be higher, and would increase the supply, if more people were eating meat. Saying it definitely isn't the case is a load of *******s.

    OP, if you're against eating bacon because pigs are cute you're a frakn dumbass. If you're against eating bacon because harming animals for arbitrary reasons is wrong then fair enough, but you should probably also try to avoid eggs and milk. As well as fish (which counts as meat) and other types of meat. Unless of course it's okay for me to kill you for pleasure, because I don't deem you to be cute enough.
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    (Original post by secret_smile)
    I don't understand that logic. If you couldn't kill an animal because it is barbaric, why isn't the meat industry barbaric? :holmes: Same result isn't it?

    And as for the milking the cow issue not being cruel, you aren't seeing the big picture. You are just focusing on the 'nice' bit and ignoring the reason why the cow is producing milk in the first place and the reason why the calf isn't around to drink it.

    Also, a world without dairy is possible to imagine as we aren't meant to drink milk. It's not designed for us and we don't need it. Especially as there are so many alternatives. I know loads of people who aren't even vegetarians/vegans and have cut out dairy for the heath benefits.
    The farming industry is like every other business and relies on supply and demand. If the demand for dairy decreased, less dairy cows would be bred and used for milk production. They won't keep churning out high volumes of dairy if they are making a loss. So no, it wouldn't be an immediate mass slaughter of all the dairy cows it would be a gradual decrease over time.
    No, you cannot group the whole meat industry together. Some animals are given good lives and slaughtered painlessly, and those farms I find agreeable, but I just couldn't take the life of another myself, is all I'm saying.

    Your second point I have already explained, most cows are given hormones to make them produce milk without getting pregnant, and they come to no harm directly from this.

    And as for your third point, I agree that cows would decrease in number gradually, but the fact is that they would become near enough extinct eventually, and that is something I never want to see.
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    (Original post by Mad Cat Lady)
    No, you cannot group the whole meat industry together. Some animals are given good lives and slaughtered painlessly, and those farms I find agreeable, but I just couldn't take the life of another myself, is all I'm saying.

    Your second point I have already explained, most cows are given hormones to make them produce milk without getting pregnant, and they come to no harm directly from this.

    And as for your third point, I agree that cows would decrease in number gradually, but the fact is that they would become near enough extinct eventually, and that is something I never want to see.
    What do you mean by painlessly? There will never be proof, or even real evidence that it is painless. The problem being one of personal experience. Furthermore, free range standards in this country allow for things like yarding. Organic standards allow for animals to be in pain from infections which aren't treated, or at the very least not treated straight away, due to farmers being scared they'll lose the organic logo.

    What is wrong with a species becoming extinct? Do you want to stop all species from becoming extinct or just cows?

    Lastly, all animals have been selectively bred for a long time, and their welfare has not usually been taken into account. This means that they're more prone to diseases and genetic conditions where they will be in pain. Is that something you want to support?

    Oh by the way, see post 73, in case you've missed it.
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    (Original post by Mad Cat Lady)
    No, you cannot group the whole meat industry together. Some animals are given good lives and slaughtered painlessly, and those farms I find agreeable, but I just couldn't take the life of another myself, is all I'm saying.

    Your second point I have already explained, most cows are given hormones to make them produce milk without getting pregnant, and they come to no harm directly from this.

    And as for your third point, I agree that cows would decrease in number gradually, but the fact is that they would become near enough extinct eventually, and that is something I never want to see.
    Disagree. Abattoirs have to abide by the same UK laws and methods of slaughter. The same errors in slaughter can occur in any farm.
    Spoiler explains methods of slaughter and the errors that can occur if you want to read about it.

    Spoiler:
    Show

    Cattle slaughter
    The majority of cattle are stunned with the captive bolt pistol. Penetrative captive bolt stunners drive a bolt into the skull and cause unconsciousness both through physical brain damage and the concussive blow to the skull. The bolt on a non-penetrative stunner is 'mushroom-headed' and impacts on the brain without entering the skull. Unconsciousness is caused by the concussive blow.

    If an animal is not accurately stunned or the correct cartridge strength is not used, the stun will not be effective. The EU Scientific Veterinary Committee estimate that around 5 to 10% of cattle are not stunned effectively with the captive bolt - or up to 230,000 animals a year. These animals experience the pain of being shot in the head and will either be stunned again (a difficult procedure) or continue on for knifing whilst conscious.

    In an attempt to improve accuracy, legislation requires that cattle are either confined in a stunning pen or have their heads 'securely fastened'. However, head restraint systems can cause great distress. The MHS says that 17% of abattoirs either do not use a restraint or use an "inefficient" restraint which can result in the stun being delivered ineffectively.

    Says abattoir vet Gabriele Meurer, 'Not many animals stand still. They are all upset, some very frightened and some move violently. The animals are never given time to calm down. Sometimes the slaughterman misses, wounding the animal terribly instead of stunning it. It may happen that the second shot cannot be done immediately and the animal is suffering for quite some time.'

    In addition to the stress of being in an unfamiliar environment, the electric goad can legally be used on the hindquarters of cattle and pigs if they are refusing to move forwards. This cruel device is intentionally designed to cause pain.

    Worn out dairy cows may be subjected to a painful experience before they are killed. It is becoming increasingly common for novice artificial inseminators to 'practise' on cull cows in abattoirs. For welfare reasons, novice inseminators are advised to practise only on cows who will be slaughtered on that day. The message here is that this practice is considered distressing for cows - but that if they are about to be killed then this does not matter.

    Sheep slaughter
    The majority of sheep are stunned with a head-only electrical stun. The operator places a pair of electric tongs on either side of the animal's head and an electric current is passed through the brain - supposedly causing a temporary loss of consciousness.

    The MHS (Meat Hygiene Service) says that the interval between stunning and knifing can be as high as 70 seconds for sheep. Another study found that the average interval was 21 seconds. Sheep take an average of 14 seconds to lose brain responsiveness if both carotid arteries (the major arteries that supply blood to the head) are cut. UK law only requires one carotid artery to be cut and in this case sheep take an average of 70 seconds to lose brain responsiveness. Yet an electric head-only stun only lasts between 20 and 40 seconds.Viva! estimates that 4 million may regain consciousness each year before they die and we have video footage showing sheep regaining consciousness as they bleed to death. If only one carotid artery is cut, sheep may not be dead after the required 20 second bleed out time and they will therefore be skinned alive.

    Researchers at Bristol University found that after an electric stun, sheep are not able to feel pain but they are have periods of being fully aware of their surroundings i.e. they can still feel fear and they are conscious whilst hanging upside down on the killing rail, bleeding to death. They could not prove whether the electricity has an immediate effect and Dr Harold Hillman, Director of the Unity Laboratory of Applied Neurobiology, says that when animals are stunned, they suffer extreme pain. They are unable to cry out or move because the massive electric current paralyses them. His evidence is based on reports from human torture victims.

    Pig slaughter
    Most pigs are electrically stunned and research has shown that the inaccurate placement of the electric tongs is a big problem within the industry. Research has shown that 36% of tong placements do not span the brain as required by law. 13.3% of pigs are stunned on the snout and jaws - a position which is not recommended because animals may fail to lose consciousness. Viva! estimates that in the UK, 125,000 pigs a year will not be stunned at all because of this.

    Pigs stay unconscious for an average of 42 seconds but not all pigs will be unconscious for as long as this. They take up to 23 seconds to lose brain responsiveness, meaning that the interval between stunning and knifing should certainly not be longer than 19 seconds. But MHS statistics reveal that in many abattoirs, the interval between stunning and knifing is longer than this. Viva! estimates that in the UK, approximately a million pigs will regain consciousness before they die from loss of blood. We have video footage showing pigs regaining consciousness as they bleed to death.

    Says abattoir vet Gabriele Meurer, 'The slaughtermen are in such a hurry that they often don't put the electric tongs in the correct position on the pigs' heads. The pigs get only half or insufficiently stunned, wake up while they bleed and are obviously still alive and conscious when they plunge into the boiling water. Sheep are stunned just as badly.'

    25% of pigs - over 2 million a year - are stunned with CO2 gas. It takes pigs up to 30 seconds to lose consciousness and during that time they will squeal, hyperventilate and try to escape. Pigs are supposed to be left in the gas chamber until the gas kills them and then 'bled out'.

    The captive bolt pistol is not recommended for pigs because the brain lies deep down in the head and it is difficult to cause unconsciousness. Yet the captive bolt pistol continues to be used for pigs in a high number of low throughput premises.



    Again, I don't mind if people don't want to be vegetarians. That is there choice and I totally respect it.
    All I ask is that they don't sugar coat the truth about the meat/dairy industry by coming out with fairytales of 'painless slaughter' and 'good lives'.

    Your second point was addressed by JCC- MGS,
    How is it acceptable to feed cows hormones which leave them in a constant state of artificial pregnancy and extract their milk? Can you imagine the hormonal imbalances of pregnancy your entire life? Is that not suffering?

    Third point - what is so wrong with them becoming extinct? I'd rather them not exist than be intensively farmed and slaughtered.
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    Being veggie can be healthier than eating meat if done properly! No gross fat clogging up your arteries!
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    (Original post by JCC-MGS)
    How is it acceptable to feed cows hormones which leave them in a constant state of artificial pregnancy and extract their milk? Can you imagine the hormonal imbalances of pregnancy your entire life? Is that not suffering? And male cows are not killed for meat, if the veal industry did not exist then male calves would still be killed because they don't present any financial incentive if they can't produce milk. That is what happens when a society treats animals as though they are objects, if they don't fulfill a certain purpose then they are discarded. And what does it matter if you only buy free range eggs when you purchase foods with eggs listed as ingredients? Big companies don't use free range eggs in their foods, they use battery hens to reduce costs. The only time you eat an egg product which is free range is when you buy fresh eggs themselves. And what does free range even mean? Do you know the definition of free range? Free range does not mean that chickens are not debeaked with a hot blade. Free range does not mean that male chicks are not slaughtered at birth and crushed because they don't lay eggs. Free range does not mean that hens are not starved to stimulate their laying cycle.

    Vegetarians are delusional people who don't make the connections between their eating habits and the cruelty behind them because they don't want to. There is nothing humane about the creation of any animal products.

    I agree. This is why I'm a vegan. I do not need to fill my stomach nor clothe myself in exchange to the suffering of other animals. I see the consumption of animal products as a wider issue of treating animals as objects, which can also be extended to pet ownership. For example, many healthy dogs are put down because they cannot be found a home. The same applies to horse racing where the horses suffer needless injuries during races and when they are unfit to race they are shot dead to be sold as meat to France. Why race with horses when you can race in vehicles, on foot or with bikes? It is because of "us" that this is happening. Never domesticate wild animals just so that we can have a living toy. That said, vegetarianism can help people make the step between being an omnivore to going vegan.
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    (Original post by Meg Griffin)
    Being veggie can be healthier than eating meat if done properly! No gross fat clogging up your arteries!
    Your post screams ignorance.
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    (Original post by there's too much love)
    This is a ridiculously stupid, over simplistic and idiotic post. You should be ashamed of yourself.
    wtf are you talking about?
 
 
 
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