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I have noticed anti-muslim comments get the most negative reps but.... watch

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    (Original post by OmarDurrani)
    I speak in RP (BBC/Oxford English). I apparently had the "poshest" accent at my boarding school in Edinburgh.
    WHAT!? seriously. OMG. you must be loaded! to go to boarding school. have you done your a levels.?>
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    (Original post by OmarDurrani)
    Fair points made there, brother. I'd like to respond to your argument with some of my own insight as a Muslim (perhaps not the best one) and I do hope these answers are what you were looking for:

    I don't see this point as valid since the U.N. represents a body of nations, not religions.

    I don't see how Christian extremists (note be taken - I used the word extremists, as ALL Muslims do not react in this way) would react any differently if Muslims set alight bibles and drew images of Jesus Christ (PBUH) doing the things many people depicted Muhammad (PBUH) doing. The reason I chose Christianity was for the simple reason that it is the largest religion in the world, hence it would have a large number of extremists as well. Recently a Christian girl in America wore a t-shirt which said "Islam is of the devil" to school, also an aged white male who was also ex-military recently drove to a mosque in America with a car full of explosives. I'd be more than happy to cite these examples if you honestly can't take my word for it. People are scared of Muslims, hence the sensationalisation of Muslim extremists on the media is far greater than that of other religions, also things happen in history, 9/11 may have occurred, but so did the Crusades, did they not?

    Again, a highly opinionated point of view, made obvious by your selection of language. You say it, generalising all Muslims as if though we are all one. Also, "mental disorder," I mean, really? You expect to use a phrase like that and NOT expect people to call you biased?

    As for the quotes, let me explain a few as I obviously can't explain each and every one of them:
    "Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors." This makes it very clear to only fight those who "fight you" and says "but do not transgress limits;" which again implies that there are limits - extremists tend to not understand this, like most other religions, suicide is prohibited in Islam. If you die fighting, you are considered a martyr to the religion, no where in the Quran does it say to blow yourself up and kill innocent people.

    "And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith." Once again, this very clearly implies to fight when oppressed because of your religion, not to kill all non-believers.

    "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Previous context has not been mentioned here, there is a mention in earlier verses leading up to this about fighting as retaliation, not to start fights.

    "Allah is the Protector of those who have faith: from the depths of darkness He will lead them forth into light. Of those who reject faith the patrons are the evil ones: from light they will lead them forth into the depths of darkness. They will be companions of the fire, to dwell therein (For ever)." Are you saying, other religions believe that people who do not believe in their religion will also receive an eternal, humble abode in heaven? Every religion says to believe, also I'd like to emphasise the usage of the word "reject". In Islam, you are forgiven if you were never invited to Islam, only if you reject the invitation do they believe you are destined to hell fire.

    Again, you say Muslims would claim the source is bias, take a look at it. Parts of quotes are highlighted and a lot of them are given out of context - this would completely change the meaning of things regardless of what it is. For example, if in 'Much Ado About Nothing' by Shakespeare if there is a quote where Benedick expresses how he loves Beatrice, and no previous context given - someone with no previous knowledge of the play would not understand the significance of the quote as they have no idea how anti-Marriage the two of them were earlier on in the play.


    P.S. I would like to clarify that I am agnostic. I am, technically a Muslim, but I'm not sure about my beliefs, not because of the religion as such, but because religion isn't something I'd ordinarily think about - so I wouldn't label myself as anything. I go to a Church of England school, my mother is British and my grandfather is Roman Catholic. It is not Islam that makes me question faith, rather the belief in a superior being in itself, however I do often see myself turning to God for help as I very often have no where else to look for guidance, and at the very least, it calms me.
    1) The point about the United Nations is all too valid. I am referring to the Organization of the Islamic Conference's (OIC), an explicitly religious organization, repeated attempts to criminalize blasphemy through U.N. resolutions.

    2) As an example, Saudi Arabia bans bibles and crucifixes and destroys those that enter the country. The United States has a growing and vocal Atheist minority that targets Christians in particular (to do the huge presence of Christian fundamentalists), and, though many Americans dislike it, they do not kill and riot. Hell, there is even a website in the US for burning the bible (http://www.burnthebibleassociation.com/), and yet, somehow, nobody is killed.

    The reason the media focuses on Islam is because, today, violent acts in the name of religion are done, by and large, in the name of Islam. Add that to the fact that any criticism or "mockery" (such as blasphemy, images of Islam, and burning the Koran, are responded to with threats of violence and with all out violence), and it is easy to see why so many Westerners find the religion to be suspect.

    3) I am asserting, correctly, that the term "phobia" refers to a, using merriam-webster dictionary, "an exaggerated usually inexplicable and illogical fear." The term "islamophobia" is, then, used to paint any and all criticism of Islam, whether rational or irrational, as exaggerated and illogical.


    In regards to the quotes, I can understand your interpretation, but you must also see how easily it could be interpreted to support violence against the West if you agree with the belief that the West is the aggressor. You cannot claim their interpretation is incorrect because it would be arrogant and presumptuous to do so.

    "I am an agnostic" simply means you do not know whether God exists or not, the real question is whether you believe God exists or not (atheism vs theism), and clearly you do. I find it regrettable that you feel the need to be an apologist for Islam, because it is, like any other faith, full of ignorance, cruelty, and outmoded moral systems. The difference with Islam is that, unlike with Christianity, it has not, by and large, undergone secularization.
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    (Original post by Wucker)
    3) I am asserting, correctly, that the term "phobia" refers to a, using merriam-webster dictionary, "an exaggerated usually inexplicable and illogical fear." The term "islamophobia" is, then, used to paint any and all criticism of Islam, whether rational or irrational, as exaggerated and illogical.
    Islamophobia refers to a phobia of all Muslims. Islamophobia is not synonymous to criticism of Islam.
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    cool story bro
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    (Original post by NO ONE)
    1)Anti-Christianity comments get postive repped
    2)On a general religion thread on "does god exist", the Atheists and trolls get the most positive reps.
    3) But on a muslim thread, any criticism of that religion is met with loads of negative reps - whether you be atheist or from a different religion.

    Why the bias TSR?
    :confused:
    Your post has just proved you wrong.
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    Mainly due to the psuedointellectual liberal elite who thinks that just because there are large currents of unjustified Islamophobic feeling amongst the general populace that that means that in intellectual circles Islam must be immune to criticism.

    It's all nonsense and pretentious posturing, that's all.
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    (Original post by B-Man.)
    Islamophobia refers to a phobia of all Muslims. Islamophobia is not synonymous to criticism of Islam.
    In theory, you are correct, however in practice, you know as well as I do that the term is applied to any and all criticism of Islam. Those Muslims who feel that their religion is unfairly critiqued use it as a crutch to devalue legitimate concerns and to avoid answering hard questions about their faith.
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    (Original post by Wucker)
    In theory, you are correct, however in practice, you know as well as I do that the term is applied to any and all criticism of Islam. Those Muslims who feel that their religion is unfairly critiqued use it as a crutch to devalue legitimate concerns and to avoid answering hard questions about their faith.
    This is done with many terms: anti-semitism, racism, homophobia, sexism etc.
    This doesn't change the meaning of the terms themselves. If you stated (with evidence) that a certain ethnic group commits more crime - you may be labelled racist, but you wouldn't defend yourself by claiming that racism is actually a legitimate criticism. You would argue against the accusation of racism. The same should be done with Islamophobia.
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    (Original post by B-Man.)
    This is done with many terms: anti-semitism, racism, homophobia, sexism etc.
    This doesn't change the meaning of the terms themselves. If you stated (with evidence) that a certain ethnic group commits more crime - you may be labelled racist, but you wouldn't defend yourself by claiming that racism is actually a legitimate criticism. You would argue against the accusation of racism. The same should be done with Islamophobia.
    I certainly agree that these terms are grossly abused.

    The difference, I would say, with Islamophobia, is that it is a term unique to Islam, and not, by and large, applied to other religions. The term Christianophobia, for example, is rarely used. I find this fact to be quote ironic because I think that Europe has much more to fear from Islam in terms of loss of social liberties and degradation of human rights that they do from Christianity and yet this fear is considered a phobia.
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    (Original post by DontJudge)
    WHAT!? seriously. OMG. you must be loaded! to go to boarding school. have you done your a levels.?>
    I'm not all that loaded, and nope, I'm starting them this year most probably, I may finish them a year earlier though depending on how easy I find them.
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    (Original post by Wucker)
    1) The point about the United Nations is all too valid. I am referring to the Organization of the Islamic Conference's (OIC), an explicitly religious organization, repeated attempts to criminalize blasphemy through U.N. resolutions.

    2) As an example, Saudi Arabia bans bibles and crucifixes and destroys those that enter the country. The United States has a growing and vocal Atheist minority that targets Christians in particular (to do the huge presence of Christian fundamentalists), and, though many Americans dislike it, they do not kill and riot. Hell, there is even a website in the US for burning the bible (http://www.burnthebibleassociation.com/), and yet, somehow, nobody is killed.

    The reason the media focuses on Islam is because, today, violent acts in the name of religion are done, by and large, in the name of Islam. Add that to the fact that any criticism or "mockery" (such as blasphemy, images of Islam, and burning the Koran, are responded to with threats of violence and with all out violence), and it is easy to see why so many Westerners find the religion to be suspect.

    3) I am asserting, correctly, that the term "phobia" refers to a, using merriam-webster dictionary, "an exaggerated usually inexplicable and illogical fear." The term "islamophobia" is, then, used to paint any and all criticism of Islam, whether rational or irrational, as exaggerated and illogical.


    In regards to the quotes, I can understand your interpretation, but you must also see how easily it could be interpreted to support violence against the West if you agree with the belief that the West is the aggressor. You cannot claim their interpretation is incorrect because it would be arrogant and presumptuous to do so.

    "I am an agnostic" simply means you do not know whether God exists or not, the real question is whether you believe God exists or not (atheism vs theism), and clearly you do. I find it regrettable that you feel the need to be an apologist for Islam, because it is, like any other faith, full of ignorance, cruelty, and outmoded moral systems. The difference with Islam is that, unlike with Christianity, it has not, by and large, undergone secularization.
    I do not know enough about your point about the U.N. to try and object to it, so I'll give you that one.

    Every religion has violent extremists, maybe not in proportion to each other, but I think most people can agree that Muslim terrorism is more widely reported than any other form of religious violence and to claim it is the most widely reported because it's the most violent isn't a very solid argument. http://www.christianaggression.org/i...&id=1070517086

    It is not illogical to fear individual Muslims, it is, however illogical to fear ALL Muslims.

    Once again, people may interpret things as they like, but it does not reflect the intent of the content.

    I do not know if God exists, I'd like to believe he does exist and therefore try to make myself think he does, but there is no certitude in my thoughts of God's existence.
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    (Original post by OmarDurrani)
    I do not know enough about your point about the U.N. to try and object to it, so I'll give you that one.

    Every religion has violent extremists, maybe not in proportion to each other, but I think most people can agree that Muslim terrorism is more widely reported than any other form of religious violence and to claim it is the most widely reported because it's the most violent isn't a very solid argument. http://www.christianaggression.org/i...&id=1070517086

    It is not illogical to fear individual Muslims, it is, however illogical to fear ALL Muslims.

    Once again, people may interpret things as they like, but it does not reflect the intent of the content.

    I do not know if God exists, I'd like to believe he does exist and therefore try to make myself think he does, but there is no certitude in my thoughts of God's existence.
    Theologically, that would make you an agnostic theist (ie, you don't know whether God exists but you believe he does).

    As for Muslim extremism, my main concern is the fact that the vast majority of Muslims worldwide, and even in the West, are very conservative. In addition, they are unwilling to tolerate criticism of their belief system even though it opens them up very much to it. The result has been a curtailing of free speech across the West (both in the form of bans on hate speech and bans on the burka), and an increasing alienation of cultures fueled by the absurd concept of state funded religious schools.

    No, I do not think Islam is inherently worse than Christianity, but it has not been secularized in the West. Therein, sir, lies the danger that Western states undue all of the social and political progress of the last 40 years, progress that had previously been obstructed by religion.
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    (Original post by Wucker)
    Theologically, that would make you an agnostic theist (ie, you don't know whether God exists but you believe he does).

    As for Muslim extremism, my main concern is the fact that the vast majority of Muslims worldwide, and even in the West, are very conservative. In addition, they are unwilling to tolerate criticism of their belief system even though it opens them up very much to it. The result has been a curtailing of free speech across the West (both in the form of bans on hate speech and bans on the burka), and an increasing alienation of cultures fueled by the absurd concept of state funded religious schools.

    No, I do not think Islam is inherently worse than Christianity, but it has not been secularized in the West. Therein, sir, lies the danger that Western states undue all of the social and political progress of the last 40 years, progress that had previously been obstructed by religion.
    Yes, then I am an agnostic theist. Once again, more of a generalisation. My Muslim father drinks, as do most of my Muslim uncles. My father's Muslim friends etc. but they also pray. What tends to be the case is educated Muslims alter the religion in certain ways - for example alcoholism and substance abuse leading to self harm or the harm of others is generally considered unacceptable, but they do not completely disallow alcohol to themselves. Every Muslim friend I had at boarding school did consume alcohol or other intoxicants and did not oppose sex out of wedlock. You think most Muslims are conservative, because you don't see the liberal ones. Even my Muslim domestic and security staff observe the alcohol consumption and other supposedly unlawful things, but they don't oppose it. A large number do it themselves as well. (This is just to give an overview that it's not only the bourgeoisie.) Also Muslim countries are becoming more and more tolerant towards Western customs (United Arab Emirates, more specifically Dubai.) Half of those people at the pubs and clubs in Dubai are Muslim. All in all I feel cultures are merging with each other, which may or may not be a good thing - that's not the argument. I agree, by and large Muslims tend to be more conservative, but is this the fault of Islam and Muslims in general or of those people who go to other countries and wish to impose their own customs?

    Islam has been secularized, to what extent in regards to the West is debatable, but generally the extremists in the West feel like outcasts and in search for some identity try to identify with Islam - which I feel is wrong. My parents particularly told me to not stick with the Arabs and Pakistanis when I was at boarding school because that would, in theory, create somewhat of a Muslim subculture and in my parents' and m personal opinion, most subcultures are counter-productive.
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    (Original post by OmarDurrani)
    Yes, then I am an agnostic theist. Once again, more of a generalisation. My Muslim father drinks, as do most of my Muslim uncles. My father's Muslim friends etc. but they also pray. What tends to be the case is educated Muslims alter the religion in certain ways - for example alcoholism and substance abuse leading to self harm or the harm of others is generally considered unacceptable, but they do not completely disallow alcohol to themselves. Every Muslim friend I had at boarding school did consume alcohol or other intoxicants and did not oppose sex out of wedlock. You think most Muslims are conservative, because you don't see the liberal ones. Even my Muslim domestic and security staff observe the alcohol consumption and other supposedly unlawful things, but they don't oppose it. A large number do it themselves as well. (This is just to give an overview that it's not only the bourgeoisie.) Also Muslim countries are becoming more and more tolerant towards Western customs (United Arab Emirates, more specifically Dubai.) Half of those people at the pubs and clubs in Dubai are Muslim. All in all I feel cultures are merging with each other, which may or may not be a good thing - that's not the argument. I agree, by and large Muslims tend to be more conservative, but is this the fault of Islam and Muslims in general or of those people who go to other countries and wish to impose their own customs?

    Islam has been secularized, to what extent in regards to the West is debatable, but generally the extremists in the West feel like outcasts and in search for some identity try to identify with Islam - which I feel is wrong. My parents particularly told me to not stick with the Arabs and Pakistanis when I was at boarding school because that would, in theory, create somewhat of a Muslim subculture and in my parents' and m personal opinion, most subcultures are counter-productive.
    I invite you to please look at any opinion polling done on the subject, in the West and in the Islamic world.

    You will see clearly that, for example, vast majorities do not support the separation of church and state, think blasphemy should be illegal, and want the death penalty for apostasy?

    Secularized? Give me a break.
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    (Original post by Wucker)
    I invite you to please look at any opinion polling done on the subject, in the West and in the Islamic world.

    You will see clearly that, for example, vast majorities do not support the separation of church and state, think blasphemy should be illegal, and want the death penalty for apostasy?

    Secularized? Give me a break.
    Turkey - I rest my case.
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    You received 30 pos and 12 negs. I will leave the thinking to you.
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    (Original post by OmarDurrani)
    I'm not all that loaded, and nope, I'm starting them this year most probably, I may finish them a year earlier though depending on how easy I find them.
    trust me alevels noteasy blood! im in my first year.!! to me mucheffort just to get a C and B
    how did u do in ya GCSe
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    (Original post by DontJudge)
    trust me alevels noteasy blood! im in my first year.!! to me mucheffort just to get a C and B
    how did u do in ya GCSe
    Your name goes well with with your post, hypocrite.
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    (Original post by Munchies-YumYum)
    Your name goes well with with your post, hypocrite.
    not hypocrite. juxtaposition or oxymoron
    and whats rong with my post may i ask?
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    (Original post by DontJudge)
    not hypocrite. juxtaposition or oxymoron
    and whats rong with my post may i ask?
    Nothingness.
 
 
 
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