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    (Original post by Lewis :D)
    British are deluded, the argument that we live on a small island is invalid we actually don't have enough immigrants
    Obviously you don't live in the South-east.

    My home town is meant to grow by more than 100,000 people within 15 years. One. Hundred. Thousand. When I was born it was about 50,000, now it's about 65,000.

    Kent, Essex and the rest of the Home Counties are getting paved over for no good reason. We need to stop migration completely for a few years, get adjusted to it and move to conserve the wild and rural land that we still have.
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    (Original post by Lewis :D)
    British are deluded, the argument that we live on a small island is invalid we actually don't have enough immigrants
    Err...

    what?
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    No.

    Reason because you can immigrate elsewhere in the EU without a visa etc.
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    No. It should be thoroughly reformed though IMO. Less bureacracy, more transparency.

    I like the idea of a more integrated European Union.
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    (Original post by Kara09)
    Why do Brits complain about the EU so much? I'm from Luxembourg and we've never had any issues with being part of the bloc, I mean the borders are open I can go and live in France, Germany, Spain without restrictions or having to go through border control. Why on earth would we want to separate or exclude ourselves from Europe. Switzerland and Norway implement almost the same regulations but they are unique countries. The UK is not Switzerland and it will never be, you'll only lose if you leave the EU which I think will never happen anyway.
    That's because your one of the countries who get a lot out the EU. We on the other hand pick up a significant amount of the bill for the things such as the bail outs and pay an extremly high contribution to the corrupt systeam. We have to fill our finest universities with europeans paying the same as our own students when we could be getting triple the amount and therefore be able to lower fees to our own students.
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    An economic union is desirable, but I'm not in favour of anything further than that. Further integration is not a good idea imo.
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    (Original post by 1.2.3.)
    An economic union is desirable, but I'm not in favour of anything further than that. Further integration is not a good idea imo.
    Out of curiosity, what makes you opposed to further integration?
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    (Original post by Ki_Kudos)
    Out of curiosity, what makes you opposed to further integration?
    Well I'm really not an expert on the EU, but mainly the loss of national sovereignty. States are way too varied to have their laws and actions dictated by a supreme body, I don't really see how we could do it without a large number of opt-outs from treaties - and doesn't that kind of miss the point of further integration? Also, what social model would we choose and how would this even be implemented?
    I'm not really sure, on the one hand I can see the appeal of a united Europe in a global sense, but on the other hand and realistically, I don't know how it would be achieved

    EDIT: I definitely agree with your idea that the EU needs to be reformed though.
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    (Original post by 1.2.3.)
    Well I'm really not an expert on the EU, but mainly the loss of national sovereignty. States are way too varied to have their laws and actions dictated by a supreme body, I don't really see how we could do it without a large number of opt-outs from treaties - and doesn't that kind of miss the point of further integration? Also, what social model would we choose and how would this even be implemented?
    I'm not really sure, on the one hand I can see the appeal of a united Europe in a global sense, but on the other hand and realistically, I don't know how it would be achieved

    EDIT: I definitely agree with your idea that the EU needs to be reformed though.
    I see your point about loss of sovereignty. The sticky part for most folk I talk to is the same.

    Is that necessarily a bad thing though? Don't get me wrong, the current set up is poor but I would eventually like to see something like a federal Europe. A long way off, if its even a realistic possibility right enough
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    I think we should stay in. I think that the British will never accept the Euro and that some of the less well-off countries ought to leave it instead of some of the bail-outs.
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    No, Obama has shown how shaky the special relationship with the USA is, this century could well belong to PR China and the estimates of the cost to the UK are dodgy. The world is changing fast and we're going to need legally binding friendships
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    Noooooo, I love swanning over the border as I please and enjoying the right to live in the country that I currently live in :puppyeyes:
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    I think the EU is an idea that sounds good on paper w.r.t trade agreements and economic freedom, but it has become really bureaucratic and starting to supersede the will of the British population through some of its legislation. Things like the Human Rights Act are best left to individual countries to implement, the anti-competition rulings seem to be arbitrary and just another way of making companies indirectly cost one another billions (one day Opera are complaining about MS, the next day MS are complaining about Google) and there needs to be a clear separation of the economic responsibilities of those in the EU and those in the eurozone. The role of the EU should be limited to ease trade, remove economic barriers and make cross border movement quick and easy.
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    There really isn't much point to Britain being in the EU. We don't even use the euro or remove the border controls! We dont even have any major European buildings like Germany as the central bank and belgium has the parliament and france also has many EU department headquarters. It makes sense for the rest of europe to be in the EU because they benefit from the euro and open borders so it all just seems like one big country. Britain is an island and therefore seperate from Europe!
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    (Original post by Ki_Kudos)
    I see your point about loss of sovereignty. The sticky part for most folk I talk to is the same.

    Is that necessarily a bad thing though? Don't get me wrong, the current set up is poor but I would eventually like to see something like a federal Europe. A long way off, if its even a realistic possibility right enough
    Well yeah, I think it is a bad thing I'd vote for a party based on their policies, only for them to be overriden by an unaccountable European body. Don't know whether or not a federal Europe is inevitable, but there needs to be a huge reform of the system before we'd be comfortable with further integration.
    The principle behind setting up the EU seems a bit shaky to me aswell. Fair enough, after the war we needed unity but is that really relevant now?
    Why would you like to see a federal Europe out of interest?
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    Definitely. There is absolutely no benefit of the UK being in the EU. The Euro has evidently failed, Britain is forced to comply with 75% of laws that the EU makes, there's unlimited immigration despite the fact there's no jobs. This country fought 2 wars in order to preserve it's independence and it's being removed by the EU.
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    (Original post by 1.2.3.)
    Well yeah, I think it is a bad thing I'd vote for a party based on their policies, only for them to be overriden by an unaccountable European body. Don't know whether or not a federal Europe is inevitable, but there needs to be a huge reform of the system before we'd be comfortable with further integration.
    The principle behind setting up the EU seems a bit shaky to me aswell. Fair enough, after the war we needed unity but is that really relevant now?
    Why would you like to see a federal Europe out of interest?
    Which relates back to the call for reform before any more parliamentary powers are handed to Brussels, so as to combat the unaccountability in EU institutions. I don't want you to think I'm in support of the UK becoming a puppet or saellite state by the way its just that I broadly support the idea of further European unity.

    I think the idea of collective security is still relevant but I should mention that the EU isn't particularly necessary for that to be achieved. There is still other organisations that offer that, UN, etc. Yet I still consider the EU a positive idea that's only just become muddled and bogged down in uneccessary and sometimes counter-productive measures. Again the key word to fix this- reform.

    When it comes down to it I realise I must sound like a nieve Idealist I can't help myself. In a dream world, borders would be erased, cultures integrated, a singular world government with regionalised organisations to ensure efficent management and representation of peoples. To me, a continued push at european integration is a step in that direction albeit still worlds away from that dream!
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    (Original post by LMAC)
    Definitely. There is absolutely no benefit of the UK being in the EU. The Euro has evidently failed, Britain is forced to comply with 75% of laws that the EU makes, there's unlimited immigration despite the fact there's no jobs. This country fought 2 wars in order to preserve it's independence and it's being removed by the EU.
    Couldn't agree more!
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    (Original post by Ki_Kudos)
    Which relates back to the call for reform before any more parliamentary powers are handed to Brussels, so as to combat the unaccountability in EU institutions. I don't want you to think I'm in support of the UK becoming a puppet or saellite state by the way its just that I broadly support the idea of further European unity.

    I think the idea of collective security is still relevant but I should mention that the EU isn't particularly necessary for that to be achieved. There is still other organisations that offer that, UN, etc. Yet I still consider the EU a positive idea that's only just become muddled and bogged down in uneccessary and sometimes counter-productive measures. Again the key word to fix this- reform.

    When it comes down to it I realise I must sound like a nieve Idealist I can't help myself. In a dream world, borders would be erased, cultures integrated, a singular world government with regionalised organisations to ensure efficent management and representation of peoples. To me, a continued push at european integration is a step in that direction albeit still worlds away from that dream!

    True, reform is necessary but I can't see it happening (I sound so pessimistic ). All of the treaties so far haven't made any REAL change towards making the EU more democratic - all I can think of is the increase in co-decision powers for Parliament, and that's not significant really in the grand scheme of things. Reform is always on the cards but in this case it needs to be more of an overhaul of the system then a few amendments here and there. The EU seems to be aiming for further integration but shouldn't they be trying to reform themselves first in order to make integration more appealing?

    Collective security - asking for countries to give up their powers on this is a step too far imo. They won't all agree - Iraq and Libya for example, where there is a clear division of opinion. To some extent, I think that the UN has only survived because it is not a supreme body if you see what I mean.

    Your last paragraph scares me a little bit! The idea of a global government doesn't appeal to me personally - if Europe did integrate fully, do you think we would ever be able to do so with the USA? Or do you think that the USA would be opposed to the idea or not? Just curious on how you'd implement this

    Edit : wouldn't it also be a bit risky to use one single currency globally when all countries are so varied economically? What would happen in the case where a country defaults on their debt?
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    (Original post by 1.2.3.)
    True, reform is necessary but I can't see it happening (I sound so pessimistic ). All of the treaties so far haven't made any REAL change towards making the EU more democratic - all I can think of is the increase in co-decision powers for Parliament, and that's not significant really in the grand scheme of things. Reform is always on the cards but in this case it needs to be more of an overhaul of the system then a few amendments here and there. The EU seems to be aiming for further integration but shouldn't they be trying to reform themselves first in order to make integration more appealing?

    Collective security - asking for countries to give up their powers on this is a step too far imo. They won't all agree - Iraq and Libya for example, where there is a clear division of opinion. To some extent, I think that the UN has only survived because it is not a supreme body if you see what I mean.

    Your last paragraph scares me a little bit! The idea of a global government doesn't appeal to me personally - if Europe did integrate fully, do you think we would ever be able to do so with the USA? Or do you think that the USA would be opposed to the idea or not? Just curious on how you'd implement this

    Edit : wouldn't it also be a bit risky to use one single currency globally when all countries are so varied economically? What would happen in the case where a country defaults on their debt?
    I'd say giving the European Parliament more power to scrutinise the Comission and Council is actually quite a significant step in making the EU more democratic. I agree with you though, it does need more of an overhaul rather than only amendments.

    Aspects of collective security already operate in NATO for example so I don't think its too great a leap to imagine it happening for the EU. There is already things like the Common Security and Defence Policy which commit battlegroups and peacekeepers overseas from different militaries.

    Tbh, my last paragraph was nothing but a pipe-dream. I know nothing like that would be currently possible. The competitive economic system wouldn't allow for something like that. Almost every nation just now, if not all, would oppose such an idea - all countries are out to protect their own interests rather than promoting the common good.
 
 
 
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