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Netherlands set to ban halal/kosher slaughter without stunning watch

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    (Original post by FyreFight)
    Good.

    It's always amusing to see the Islamists and apologists crawl out of the woodwork in threads like these to cough up some half-baked article on why Halal is no more cruel than normal slaughter, invariably hsoted at a site like www.allahismighty.com.
    Don't get too happy it hasn't been banned in UK and it's probably very unlikely keeping in mind how the jews own big supermarkets and business in Uk and muslims owning 90% of takeaways and indian restaurants.

    Also keeping in mind the wealthy Arabs living in London.

    CRITERIA OF HALAL SLAUGHTER ADOPTED BY HMC
    HMC has adopted such a criterion for Halal slaughter that is accepted by all, irrespective of sects and schools of thought. In other words, the most stringent guidelines have been adopted to ensure for universal acceptability and so that the consumable is Halal according to everyone and not just one group.

    Therefore the ideal solution is that such a path be adopted that caters for all, not just the majority or any particular group or school of thought. While this may seem difficult it is neither impractical nor unattainable. Both theoretically and practically a “middle-way” must be adopted by the Monitoring group.

    In theory the method to adopt that would be all inclusive would be to accommodate only those decisions that are permissible for all, not just those that create lee-ways for a specific group. This is easier than it sounds. The reason is that there are no situations where a certain item would be necessary on one and forbidden on another, but rather an item may be permissible for one group and impermissible for another. In which case the solution is to accommodate the view of impermissibility, as because neither the former are committing any wrong by being made to follow this more precautionary ruling, nor are the latter (for whom the item was impermissible) being subject to rules that do not accommodate them.

    Hence, the most important factors of the criteria are:

    * NON STUNNING
    * MANUAL SLAUGHTER BY A MUSLIM - NON MECHANICAL
    * VERBAL RECITATION OF ALLAH’S NAME – NO BLESSED BLADES OR PRE RECORDED BISMILLAH
    * ENSURING THE MINIMUM AMOUNT OF VESSELS ARE SEVERED
    http://www.halalmc.net/about_hmc/sla..._criteria.html

    GL with getting this banned.
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    (Original post by B-Man.)
    lol it would be better if they could find a source which wasn't Islamic or Jewish, in order to avoid the inevitable accusations of bias. Anyway do you have a source which does show that not stunning animals is more harmful?
    New Scientist: Animals Feel the Pain of Religious Slaughter

    http://www.newscientist.com/article/...slaughter.html
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    Only if animals could speak after they die, we would have a stronger case over whether ritual slaughter is humane in which I case I do btw.

    Civil liberties aren't being protected.
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    Does stunning kill the animal?
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    (Original post by xXxiKillxXx)
    Does stunning kill the animal?
    no.
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    (Original post by B-Man.)
    It doesn't contain any hyperlinks. And if you expect me or anyone other TSR member to actively find everyone of those books to verify his claims your dreaming.
    They're online journals. The point is, the studies are there.
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    I'm for this. I think anyway. I have to say though that stunning isn't necessarily that much better. It doesn't always work and can just cause intense pain for the animal. Slitting an animals throat can sometimes cause instant unconsciousness and therefore less pain and suffering. I do however expect that it is more common for stunning to work instantly than slitting the throat so yeah I am for it I think lol.
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    (Original post by FyreFight)
    New Scientist: Animals Feel the Pain of Religious Slaughter

    http://www.newscientist.com/article/...slaughter.html
    This is a convincing article which any supporters of anti-stunning methods should read and consider. Any counter-arguements to the claims?
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    (Original post by B-Man.)
    As a Muslim I'm indifferent to stunning or no-stunning of Halal meat. I have heard arguements on both sides for whether it causes greater suffering or not, but I don't think it makes much of a difference, if any. However, if someone wants to provide a reliable study which proves me wrong, they are more than welcome and I'll will give it genuine consideration - I'm not impervious to facts.
    Two things you should be worried about as a Muslim..

    1) The meat will not be halal if the animal dies before you read the prayer and slaughter it properly. From other studies, the is a reasonable percentage of the chicken (not bigger animals) will die instantly when the shock is applied.

    2) It is not acceptable for their to be any pain caused to the animal unnecessarily. If it is proven that the electric shock causes no pain whatsoever then that's fine.


    There are two studies that I can't find the links to right now. First one deals with pain an animal feels when it is stunned and talks about the difference between the sensory and motor neurones and how they are affected. Second study tries to prove that ritual slaughter carried out by Muslims and Jews cause minimal pain and gives the reasons..

    If anyone can find this studies, that would be welcomed
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    I am totally against this! There is more pain in electrocution then in sharp slaughter with the knife.

    The example I will give to prove this is us humans. If anyone has been electrocuted you will know that you will feel quite a lot of pain whereas when you cut any place in your body you wont feel any pain till few minutes later. I had a friend who accidentally CHOPPED part of his finger off, soo much blood was coming out but he told me there was no pain whatsoever. He was just confused and too worried to think of the pains. I have been electrocuted a few times and I seriously hate the pain and stays for quite some time!
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    (Original post by In2deep)
    Two things you should be worried about as a Muslim..

    1) The meat will not be halal if the animal dies before you read the prayer and slaughter it properly. From other studies, the is a reasonable percentage of the chicken (not bigger animals) will die instantly when the shock is applied.
    I understand that it must be alive before it is slaughtered. I am not aware of the studies you are reffering to however.

    (Original post by In2deep)
    2) It is not acceptable for their to be any pain caused to the animal unnecessarily. If it is proven that the electric shock causes no pain whatsoever then that's fine.
    From what I have read it doesn't seem to cause extra pain but I won't rule it out, if anyone can provide evidence to counter this.

    (Original post by In2deep)
    There are two studies that I can't find the links to right now. First one deals with pain an animal feels when it is stunned and talks about the difference between the sensory and motor neurones and how they are affected. Second study tries to prove that ritual slaughter carried out by Muslims and Jews cause minimal pain and gives the reasons..

    If anyone can find this studies, that would be welcomed
    I would appreciate the studies as well
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    It's funny I was just thinking how much I liek Holland, but how globalised it's becoming and powerless to keep it's own culture, and then they go and do this.
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    (Original post by Humz7)
    which is why an american university referred as the university of miami conducted it?
    yeah of course, it can't be right? stupid yanks, what do they know eh? :rolleyes:
    :confused: You linked to an article which refers to a study conducted in a German University called 'the University of Hanover.'

    (Original post by Humz7)
    those who claim that butchering halal/kosher way is, 'crueler', than stunning.. go get some facts before you can back that bull**** up.
    http://www.themodernreligion.com/mis..._slaughter.htm
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    (Original post by storna)
    Article.



    So, essentially, the Netherlands is set to ban halal/kosher slaughter where stunning is not used beforehand. They will still be able to make a prayer/cut the animal's throat - but only after it has been stunned.

    Agree/disagree?
    Good.

    All halal meat should be done that way.
    There's no reason to cause unnecessary pain. while slaughtering.

    (Original post by Teras)
    I am totally against this! There is more pain in electrocution then in sharp slaughter with the knife.

    The example I will give to prove this is us humans. If anyone has been electrocuted you will know that you will feel quite a lot of pain whereas when you cut any place in your body you wont feel any pain till few minutes later. I had a friend who accidentally CHOPPED part of his finger off, soo much blood was coming out but he told me there was no pain whatsoever. He was just confused and too worried to think of the pains. I have been electrocuted a few times and I seriously hate the pain and stays for quite some time!
    The electric shock paralyses them, so they can't feel anything.

    It's not the same as getting electrocuted.
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    Good, good, good. Bloody awful way to commit a bloody awful act is banned - one step forward.
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    (Original post by No Man)
    Good.

    All halal meat should be done that way.
    There's no reason to cause unnecessary pain. while slaughtering.



    The electric shock paralyses them, so they can't feel anything.

    It's not the same as getting electrocuted.
    What about Kosher meat?
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    (Original post by B-Man.)
    What about Kosher meat?
    Well, if the slaughtering technique for kosher meat is the same as halal meat, I feel the same way about kosher meat too.
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    (Original post by No Man)
    Well, if the slaughtering technique for kosher meat is the same as halal meat, I feel the same way about kosher meat too.
    The article clearly explains this is the case.
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    I wonder what they're going to do about the constant pain they give to farm animals like chicken by feeding them growth hormones and keeping them in cages constantly. Oh yeah nothing, more interested in whether cutting their throats or stunning them (which can be done more than once for large animals) is more painful.

    Oh well

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    So if the animal is stunned before slaughter, does that mean it would not be halal by definition, however it was slaughtered?

    If so, the Netherlands have basically just outlawed halal meat.
 
 
 
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