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    (Original post by L18)
    And how do they prove that though?

    Let's take number 1 -



    How do they know I use it to get to school? Say I have a crash one day, and I am on my way to school. How do they prove that it wasn't an isolated incident, and my dad usually takes the car every other day.

    Or number 5.



    Since when does being a named driver mean you wouldn't take the car on long journeys?

    It's impossible for them to tell who was driving the car the most.
    It's quite easy if number 3 is true. I hope for all our sakes they don't find out because it royally ****s everyones life up if they refuse to pay out.
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    (Original post by FXX)
    It's quite easy if number 3 is true. I hope for all our sakes they don't find out because it royally ****s everyones life up if they refuse to pay out.
    How do they know which car is used to commute to where?

    Many households have an extra car.

    How are they going to prove that he doesn't use the car I'm insured on as his economical car and his other car as his luxury car.

    It's impossible.
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    (Original post by L18)
    How do they know which car is used to commute to where?

    Many households have an extra car.

    How are they going to prove that he doesn't use the car I'm insured on as his economical car and his other car as his luxury car.

    It's impossible.
    Because if you have an accident in your 1.2 Corsa while your dad is at work in his BMW 3-Series, they are going to have suspicions and will investigate. In fact just having access to another car is enough to make them wary, that's why they ask when you create a new policy.

    Please don't say it's impossible because it quite clearly is.
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    (Original post by kopite493)
    so what your saying that eventually we'll get to a point where only the rich can start to drive increasing the already ridiculous social divide.

    that's an interesting way to look at it
    no dont be silly. It just means those on a low income wont be able to afford to drive. and it would only be for a couple of years say 21/22 when the risk factors are reduced enough to make insurance affordable based on age.

    Sure it might mean that extra things are introduced like extra driving training or a tracker becomes the only way for under 25's to get insured. but so be it.

    (Original post by kopite493)
    whether you like it or not people need to drive so they can get to work

    buses are to unreliable
    and taxis are to expensive to be getting everyday

    what your proposing would just make it harder for a already highly unemployed generation to get a job
    your all young people. You have a choice in career. you certainly do NOT NEED a car. this country is nothing like america.

    driving at a young age has only been affordable for the low income masses relatively recently.

    Its again just tough **** if you cant do what you want when you want because you cant afford to drive.

    buses are not that bad, taxis a necessary evil if it means job or no job.

    hell, what did people do before cars for youths were affordable?? oh yeah they car shared, got a lift off parents, cycled, walked etc etc etc. No reason why the youth of today cannot do the same.

    it will have NO impact on job seeking if the person is committed enough.

    It annoys me that people like you whinge about the expense of things that only recently were luxuries and are certainly not an essential. Sure it makes life easy but its not essential and certainly nobody has a right to them. Its the same arguement often with housing costs - "we must have affordable housing"; no if it means you live in bedsit until you are 25 while you save for a mortgage then tough **** thats just the way life is.

    (Original post by L18)
    Insuance Fraud that would be almost impossible to prove.

    How do you prove who the main driver is?
    (Original post by L18)
    And how do they prove that though?

    Let's take number 1 - How do they know I use it to get to school? Say I have a crash one day, and I am on my way to school. How do they prove that it wasn't an isolated incident, and my dad usually takes the car every other day.
    you forget. your not trying to win a legal case with the insurers but get paid out by a private company who makes up its own (albeit regulated) rules. They do NOT use anywhere near the same burden of proof as a court or the police.

    eg if the inventory of personal items in car at the pound shows school books etc then theyd be asking why. 4 of you in the car while you claimed youd just going to the corner shop etc.

    again it doesnt add up.

    As soon as they smell the bull**** then they have the right to refuse to pay and the ombudsman will likely back them up.

    Insurers pay a lot of money to spy on YOU with PI's to investigate such things. sure for a lot of people they get away with it as there arent that many, but as soon as they smell a whiff of lying and its worth thier while, they will investigate. As insurance costs and fraud go up it makes more sense to increase such investigating.

    also you are forgetting a critical element, your own answer to their questions catching you out. They will check where they can what you say. Ive known investigators check with schools/employers if they know if you drive there, ask witnesses if your in uniform, independantly ring the passengers and question them etc etc etc. If you lie and they catch you out, youll be screwed. if they have reason to believe you are not saying everything you are screwed for withholding information from them.

    insurance isnt about what you can prove in a legal sense. It is often based more on balance of probabilities and what is reasonable etc etc etc.


    plus your all completely forgetting your moral obligation to society to a) not commit a crime, let alone the ethical implications of fraud and your selfish actions costing other people more. Hardly makes you a model citizen.
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    (Original post by kopite493)
    so what your saying that eventually we'll get to a point where only the rich can start to drive increasing the already ridiculous social divide.

    that's an interesting way to look at it

    whether you like it or not people need to drive so they can get to work

    buses are to unreliable
    and taxis are to expensive to be getting everyday

    what your proposing would just make it harder for a already highly unemployed generation to get a job
    Whilst not all his comments are valid, he has a point. The amount of insurance fraud that is happening these days is pushing everyones premiums up, new drivers included, if this can be reduced then it will make insurance cheaper for everyone but all this non insurance nonsense has got to stop.

    I agree with your social divide point though, and the premiums quoted by companies is ridiculous for some people, but insurance fraud is not the way to get around it as it ****s everything up for everyone.
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    insurance premiums are going up because of all the injury claims and uninsured drivers. Not because young drivers are fronting. Fronting is just a excuse for insurance companies to not pay up which is ridiculous considering 'fronters' are paying thousands anyway.
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    (Original post by Jmzie-Coupe)
    Whilst not all his comments are valid, he has a point. The amount of insurance fraud that is happening these days is pushing everyones premiums up, new drivers included, if this can be reduced then it will make insurance cheaper for everyone but all this non insurance nonsense has got to stop.

    I agree with your social divide point though, and the premiums quoted by companies is ridiculous for some people, but insurance fraud is not the way to get around it as it ****s everything up for everyone.
    im not saying we should do it im saying some poeple may have no option but to do it

    my mate works 15+ miles from his home full time

    if he payed for taxis 5 days a week that's 50 pound a week 200 pound a month

    he gets payed 700 pound a month and his rent is 300 plus all other expenses usually costs about 600 pound a moth

    that's only 100 for the taxis

    he'd need to get three buses to get to work obviously making the choice impractical

    he doesn't live with his parents

    you use a bike in Liverpool it will be slashed no ifs no buts it just will so that's out of the question

    his only option is to drive

    he obviously doesn't have 300 pound a month to be spending on car insurance so uses his dad as the main driver lowering his premium to 120 a month

    its all well and good blaming people who do this but in reality most people wouldn't do this if they made car insurance affordable in the first place
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    Rubbish.

    a) albeit in a bleak job environment he might have to wait a bit, but a good employee will eventually find work closer. If not then maybe he has to accept he cant afford his chosen job path and choose a different job.

    3 buses is not impractical if its the only way you can afford to get to work. Its perfectly doable.

    His bike wont be slashed if he asks his employer if he can keep it in back yard.

    so what if he doesnt live at home, im sure he could move closer and the money saved in travel would more or less offset the extra costs and if hes a bit out of pocket, oh well no mobile and no internet. Both luxurys no one NEEDS.

    there are always alternatives. hell he could even cycle that distance if he had no choice. I had to cycle 8 miles each way to college, 5 days a week due to being too skint to afford a bus pass let alone a car and it didnt do me any harm. once you get over whinging about it you get on with it.

    And yes blaming people like him IS the way forward. He is committing both insurance fraud AND driving without insurance. If the police stopped him and questioned him about his driving patterns, they would be well within their rights to seize his car and give him 6 points and a fine. Id imagine that would hit his pocket more than doing things the right legal way. And dont say it wont happen because it can and does on a regular basis. Sure your not as likely to be pulled as someone with no insurance policy at all as it wont show on ANPR but his policy is just a void and the same as far as the law is concerned. Oh and the parent can be prosecuted too.

    to say fronting doesnt increase premiums is rediculous. for a start there is the simple fact you are shortchanging the insurer so they arent making the same profit margin and hence general increase in prices. Then you have the massive amount of money spent on insurance fraud investigation which is an unnecessary expense if people were just honest. so again prices gone up. Then there are accidents. In some cases the insurer will refuse to pay out even for 3rd party risks meaning someone has to claim off their own insurance with increased investigation costs and massive legal costs as they try and claim off you through court. so again causes overall insurance costs to go up.....

    and car insurance being unaffordable isnt acceptable excuse either. for young people cars are NOT essential for 99% of you so it matters not that they are unaffordable. Again cars at a young age is a relatively recent thing. Young peoples insurance is expensive due to their own bad driving and high risk. How about young people learn to drive better?? then your premiums will over time come down.

    oh and yes i am being harsh on young people. but its fair an deserved in most cases. too many young people seem to think life should be easy, they should have this and that, this should be cheap, that should be free blah blah blah. Sooner you realise the real world just doesnt work that way and the sooner people adapt to their situation rather than trying to cheat their way out or swindle their way round things then the sooner they will do better in life. A large proportion of the stick levied at young people is entirely of your own making, be it poor driving =high insurance, bad rep of students = high student rent, ban of hoodies, people treating you as potential ASBO menaces etc. Yes their are problems in our society causing this but you all need to take personal responsibility. too often people have excuses for doing things wrong when they really DID have a choice not to do it but the alternative was less pleasant/awkward etc.
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    (Original post by pastpaper-guy)
    insurance premiums are going up because of all the injury claims and uninsured drivers. Not because young drivers are fronting. Fronting is just a excuse for insurance companies to not pay up which is ridiculous considering 'fronters' are paying thousands anyway.
    A company refusing to pay out is the same as being uninsured. The difference is you can't get caught until you have an accident. Then when you do and they don't pay out, you're considered uninsured, the guy you crash into has to claim off his own insurance or pay out of his own pocket, and everyones premiums go up. I'm pretty sure this has already been said several times in this thread.
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    Insurance companies are notroriously difficult to get payment from. Regardless of whether we're talking buildings, contents, car, pet etc. When you make a claim they are going to want to avoid paying or reduce what they pay you. They look for reasons why your insurance is invalid and refuse to pay up. You fight back with proof that you have valid insurance and a valid claim. It's hard enough to get your payment when you haven't fronted. Whilst I know lots of people who do use this tecnique I really wouldn't reccomend it. Insurance is one of those things that feels like a waste of money until you need to claim and you don't want to risk not being able to get your payment.
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    (Original post by pastpaper-guy)
    insurance premiums are going up because of all the injury claims and uninsured drivers. Not because young drivers are fronting. Fronting is just a excuse for insurance companies to not pay up which is ridiculous considering 'fronters' are paying thousands anyway.
    What utter twaddle. You clearly don't know the definition of fraud.
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    (Original post by kopite493)
    im not saying we should do it im saying some poeple may have no option but to do it

    my mate works 15+ miles from his home full time

    if he payed for taxis 5 days a week that's 50 pound a week 200 pound a month

    he gets payed 700 pound a month and his rent is 300 plus all other expenses usually costs about 600 pound a moth

    that's only 100 for the taxis

    he'd need to get three buses to get to work obviously making the choice impractical

    he doesn't live with his parents

    you use a bike in Liverpool it will be slashed no ifs no buts it just will so that's out of the question

    his only option is to drive

    he obviously doesn't have 300 pound a month to be spending on car insurance so uses his dad as the main driver lowering his premium to 120 a month

    its all well and good blaming people who do this but in reality most people wouldn't do this if they made car insurance affordable in the first place
    That is no excuse, and do not accept that. Car insurance for him would be affordable, if fraudsters like him stopped their activity. Like I said, that would bring premiums down.
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    (Original post by FXX)
    A company refusing to pay out is the same as being uninsured. The difference is you can't get caught until you have an accident. Then when you do and they don't pay out, you're considered uninsured, the guy you crash into has to claim off his own insurance or pay out of his own pocket, and everyones premiums go up. I'm pretty sure this has already been said several times in this thread.
    Exactly. You hit the nail on the head.
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    (Original post by kopite493)
    you use a bike in Liverpool it will be slashed no ifs no buts it just will so that's out of the question
    :rolleyes:

    ****ing mug.
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    (Original post by pastpaper-guy)
    insurance premiums are going up because of all the injury claims and uninsured drivers. Not because young drivers are fronting. .
    Drivers who are fronting ARE uninsured. Their insurance is invalid as it was obtained by deception.
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    (Original post by L18)
    How do they know which car is used to commute to where?

    Many households have an extra car.

    How are they going to prove that he doesn't use the car I'm insured on as his economical car and his other car as his luxury car.

    It's impossible.
    This. My dad has another car for long journeys and weekends, but a small cheaper model to go to work in with my mum.
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    (Original post by yahyahyahs)
    This. My dad has another car for long journeys and weekends, but a small cheaper model to go to work in with my mum.
    To the best of my knowledge it isn't down to them to prove anything. In the event of a claim the burden of proof is on the person trying to claim. So they don't have to prove you aren't the main driver, you have to prove you *are*. All they need is suspicion and then they can reject your claim. Apologies if I'm wrong in this, but that's my understanding of the situation.
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    (Original post by Sazzle4)
    To the best of my knowledge it isn't down to them to prove anything. In the event of a claim the burden of proof is on the person trying to claim. So they don't have to prove you aren't the main driver, you have to prove you *are*. All they need is suspicion and then they can reject your claim. Apologies if I'm wrong in this, but that's my understanding of the situation.
    What? My dad is the main driver on both. And since he's gone to a private insurance broker, they know the situation. You can own two cars and be the main drivers of both.
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    (Original post by yahyahyahs)
    What? My dad is the main driver on both. And since he's gone to a private insurance broker, they know the situation. You can own two cars and be the main drivers of both.
    What I meant is that whilst your example proves that the same person can have two cars and be the main driver on both, that doesn't mean that anyone who is fronting will automatically be believed. Again, whilst I accept that hundreds, probably thousands, of people do sucessfully get away with this type of insurance fraud (again, in no way referring to your Dad) my point is that when someone does decide to front they are running a huge risk as the burdern of proof is on them and not the insurance company.
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    Driving = expensive. Get used to it. And don't try and cheat the system, it's pathetic. You wanted to learn to drive, you should have known the responsibility that comes with it. That means paying your tax, your car insurance, etc.
 
 
 
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