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    Religious morality and logic...


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    (Original post by Selkarn)
    materialism, consumerism, alcohol, drugs, casual sex, highly dependent on the government to provide, and also suffers (in my view) from a lack of religious insight.
    Getting back in touch with your own Christian roots and true Western culture would also save you from your degenerate lifestyle. Better to learn about what your own culture really is before you go off embracing other peoples.
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    every religion should be scrapped.. seeing as pretty much all violence and terrorism in the world stems from pathetic disputes over religious beliefs.
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    (Original post by Selkarn)
    I'm White, and not someone you'd expect to be Muslim. However, I have a rising interest in Islam, and so too do many other White people in this country and other Western nations. There is growing dissatisfaction with the "typical" Western lifestyle. This is a huge generalisation, but I believe that the White lifestyle/culture in this country is, to put it bluntly, highly degenerate, being orientated around materialism, consumerism, alcohol, drugs, casual sex, highly dependent on the government to provide, and also suffers (in my view) from a lack of religious insight. I believe Islam could provide the solution to these, and I may very well soon be one of the many tens, if not hundreds of thousands of White people to formally embrace Islam.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...lim-faith.html
    Western society has problems, so we should all become muslims? lol
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    (Original post by Nayred)
    Materialism poses many problems as the person it affects struggles to see life beyond its physicalities and as a result, lose their morality which can have detrimental effects on others. The scale of this varies, but in extreme cases of materialism murder, theft, famine, etc takes place.
    I have friends and family who I love and respect. But I also like having nice things. Having money and being able to buy good clothes and good food is important to me. There's nothing wrong with that. Doesn't mean I'm going to pull a knife on someone because I want their money. Just because a person enjoys money and material things doesn't mean they're a bad person.

    There's nothing wrong with materialism.

    According to the Telegraph 15,000 people in the UK die from alcohol-related diseases. Not to mention the other problems alcohol causes such as anti-social behaviour. Everyone is entitled to alcohol but when your child is binge drinking at the age of 14 I don't see the morality in that.
    If people aren't going to die from alcohol-related diseases they are going to die of something else. Unless you're drinking methylated spirits every day the effects of alcohol intake are going to take decades to have any real physical impact. And who wants to live until they're 80 or 90 anyway? If a child is binge drinking at 14 the problem is bad parenting not alcohol.

    There's nothing wrong with alcohol.

    If by "casual sex" you mean getting drunk, having sex with anyone you can get your hands on then that is immoral in my opinion. Young children, and girls in particular need to learn how to protect and respect their bodies otherwise STDs, teenage pregnancies and whatnot will soar like never before. There is nothing wrong with having "casual sex" with a partner, however.
    I've had sexual encounters with lots of people, and I've ever had a "partner". My friends are also all very open sexually. None of us have ever received an STD, and none of them have ever been pregnant. We've never even had a scare before. We're careful and sensible. We get regular check-ups and always use protection. A person can enjoy casual sex and still have enough morality to know they've got to be responsible.

    There's nothing wrong with casual sex.

    (Original post by Nayred)
    The biggest killer in the UK is tobacco. Too many young children are experimenting with cigarettes because of what they see. Consequently, not only does smoking harm the smoker but also family members, co-workers and others who breathe the smoker's cigarette. Among infants to 18 months of age, secondhand smoke is associated with as many as 300,000 cases of bronchitis and pneumonia each year. Despite our healthcare system, the UK has one of the highest stillbirth rates in the world and the highest in Europe - disgusting. Tobacco will never be beaten however reprisals against this 'phenomenon' could be made. Perhaps you, sir, fell victim to your parent's smoking during pregnancy as you clearly lack the sufficient brain cells to fathom the immoralities on the aforementioned issues regarding the world today.
    The biggest killer in the UK is actually heart disease. As with alcohol if smoking takes decades to have any impact on the body and if it isn't going to kill you then something else is. There's no harm in experimenting. When I was younger I smoked a few cigarettes, that's how I know I don't like them. Any moral smoker will know not to smoke whilst pregnant and not to smoke around children, even though there has still not been any conclusive proof that second hand smoke is detrimental to anyone's health. Why should tobacco be beaten? If people enjoy smoking it that's their damn business.

    There's nothing wrong with soft drugs.

    My brain cells are perfectly fine thank-you, they're working well enough to tell my not to listen to asshats on the internet trying to push their beliefs on other people.
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    (Original post by Tesphena)
    trying to push their beliefs on other people.
    Why do people keep saying this - have I tried pushing my beliefs on anyone? No. I simply stated that I believe Islamification is a good thing, and listed my reasons why. If you think that simply saying reasons why something is good is "trying to push your beliefs on someone", then I could say that, as you just described reasons for your lifestyle, you are therefore "trying to push it onto me", which would be incorrect, just as you are.

    Anyway, it's not as though an argument on the internet is going to have any profound impact on anything, last time I checked, the typical "Western" people in this country have a birth rate far below the replacement rate and from what I have seen with my own 2 eyes, Muslims tend to have big families, so virtually every day that passes brings proportionally more Muslims when compared with others here.
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    (Original post by Selkarn)
    Why do people keep saying this - have I tried pushing my beliefs on anyone? No. I simply stated that I believe Islamification is a good thing, and listed my reasons why. If you think that simply saying reasons why something is good is "trying to push your beliefs on someone", then I could say that, as you just described reasons for your lifestyle, you are therefore "trying to push it onto me", which would be incorrect, just as you are.

    Anyway, it's not as though an argument on the internet is going to have any profound impact on anything, last time I checked, the typical "Western" people in this country have a birth rate far below the replacement rate and from what I have seen with my own 2 eyes, Muslims tend to have big families, so virtually every day that passes brings proportionally more Muslims when compared with others here.
    I have been described as an immoral person which I take offence at. When my lifestyle is being condemned it seems an awful lot like another one is being pushed on me. I am simply explaining why I find no issue with things that other people are telling me are wrong.

    Fortunately most Muslim countries are also slowly liberalizing. The only reason Christianity has become a lot less prominent in the West is because Christianity drew a line between Church and State in the 16th century. Perhaps soon Islam will do the same thing.
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    (Original post by Tesphena)
    I have been described as an immoral person which I take offence at. When my lifestyle is being condemned it seems an awful lot like another one is being pushed on me. I am simply explaining why I find no issue with things that other people are telling me are wrong.
    I am not proposing that anybody immediately forces you to stop doing what you want, I just stated that I believe it would be better if the whole of the UK converted, due to the reasons I outlined in the OP. I'm perfectly entitled to do so just as you are entitled to argue against it.

    On a more brutal - but nonetheless what I believe to be true - note, I think that mass immigration has brought forward a kind of "natural selection of cultures/lifestyles" that has never been seen before by mankind. I'll elaborate, with massive generalisations, but generalisations that I believe to be true.

    Imagine 2 groups.

    Group A lives a hedonistic lifestyle, living in constant debt, spending on frivolous activities such as alcohol, drugs, fast cars, grossly expensive clothes. They live a simple life of birth-work-consume-die, and generally tend to have very few children. The general society emphasises the importance of money, "living fast and dying young", has high divorce rates leaving children with broken families, has a large reliance on the government to constantly hold their hand, has a poor sense of justice and will take upon its back the burden of feeding and caring for even the most evil child killer, encourages homosexuality in schools, etc.

    Group B lives a traditionally "Islamic" lifestyle, being more conservative, emphasising family and community, striving to better yourself, strong sense of justice, loyalty to your partner, generally has many children.


    Even if you didn't believe in anything about Islam, when these 2 groups are placed side by side, it is obvious one culture is going to emerge superior, even if it will take a couple of generations, which in my opinion, is, like I said, a "natural selection" of culture.
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    (Original post by Selkarn)
    I am not proposing that anybody immediately forces you to stop doing what you want, I just stated that I believe it would be better if the whole of the UK converted, due to the reasons I outlined in the OP. I'm perfectly entitled to do so just as you are entitled to argue against it.

    On a more brutal - but nonetheless what I believe to be true - note, I think that mass immigration has brought forward a kind of "natural selection of cultures/lifestyles" that has never been seen before by mankind. I'll elaborate, with massive generalisations, but generalisations that I believe to be true.

    Imagine 2 groups.

    Group A lives a hedonistic lifestyle, living in constant debt, spending on frivolous activities such as alcohol, drugs, fast cars, grossly expensive clothes. They live a simple life of birth-work-consume-die, and generally tend to have very few children. The general society emphasises the importance of money, "living fast and dying young", has high divorce rates leaving children with broken families, has a large reliance on the government to constantly hold their hand, has a poor sense of justice and will take upon its back the burden of feeding and caring for even the most evil child killer, encourages homosexuality in schools, etc.

    Group B lives a traditionally "Islamic" lifestyle, being more conservative, emphasising family and community, striving to better yourself, strong sense of justice, loyalty to your partner, generally has many children.


    Even if you didn't believe in anything about Islam, when these 2 groups are placed side by side, it is obvious one culture is going to emerge superior, even if it will take a couple of generations, which in my opinion, is, like I said, a "natural selection" of culture.
    Islamification requires people to stop thinking for themselves. A nation of drones is not a good thing in my view.
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    (Original post by Prime Suspect)
    Islamification requires people to stop thinking for themselves. A nation of drones is not a good thing in my view.
    People following the word of God* or people following a rat race of government/corporation sponsored work-consume-die. I have to question who the real drones are.



    *and even if you don't believe this, it is still true that they are following what they believe to be the word of God
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    (Original post by Pax Amerifauna)
    Well if you reject sects and only rely on the Qur'an 100%, then of course your idea of Shari'a is going to differ from the traditional Sunni interpretation of Shari'a, which is what 90% of Muslims are and advocate for, and I think that is supremely relative to whether, when we speak of Shari'a, we're talking about the Shari'a of Deema, or the Shari'a of Sunni Muslims.
    No, I am not the owner of the religion, I am not the creator of it and I didn't make up the rules. The Sharia I rely on is the Sharia of the Quran- it is the only truly reliable source. So, any variation of it is just additional the basic Sharia. Not Sharia of Deema, Sharia of the Quran, which is the basis of 100% of Muslims.
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    (Original post by Selkarn)
    People following the word of God* or people following a rat race of government/corporation sponsored work-consume-die. I have to question who the real drones are.



    *and even if you don't believe this, it is still true that they are following what they believe to be the word of God
    Ah yes but the great thing about the rat race is that it is highly specific to each individual. Each person gets 'trapped' within a different part of it - diversity still remains.

    Plus we are bound by the facts of our biology to 'consume-die' - that's just part of being alive and is not in any way characteristic of drone behaviour in the sense I mean it.

    Also, who defines the word of god I wonder?
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    (Original post by Prime Suspect)
    Ah yes but the great thing about the rat race is that it is highly specific to each individual. Each person gets 'trapped' within a different part of it - diversity still remains.

    Plus we are bound by the facts of our biology to 'consume-die' - that's just part of being alive and is not in any way characteristic of drone behaviour in the sense I mean it.

    Also, who defines the word of god I wonder?
    Well, define drone and we can continue.

    My personal definition of drone in this context are people who do not think for themselves, just mindlessly follow others/the path they are set upon. I therefore think that the typical non-Muslims have much more of a drone mentality than Muslims.
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    (Original post by Selkarn)
    I am not proposing that anybody immediately forces you to stop doing what you want, I just stated that I believe it would be better if the whole of the UK converted, due to the reasons I outlined in the OP. I'm perfectly entitled to do so just as you are entitled to argue against it.

    On a more brutal - but nonetheless what I believe to be true - note, I think that mass immigration has brought forward a kind of "natural selection of cultures/lifestyles" that has never been seen before by mankind. I'll elaborate, with massive generalisations, but generalisations that I believe to be true.

    Imagine 2 groups.

    Group A lives a hedonistic lifestyle, living in constant debt, spending on frivolous activities such as alcohol, drugs, fast cars, grossly expensive clothes. They live a simple life of birth-work-consume-die, and generally tend to have very few children. The general society emphasises the importance of money, "living fast and dying young", has high divorce rates leaving children with broken families, has a large reliance on the government to constantly hold their hand, has a poor sense of justice and will take upon its back the burden of feeding and caring for even the most evil child killer, encourages homosexuality in schools, etc.

    Group B lives a traditionally "Islamic" lifestyle, being more conservative, emphasising family and community, striving to better yourself, strong sense of justice, loyalty to your partner, generally has many children.


    Even if you didn't believe in anything about Islam, when these 2 groups are placed side by side, it is obvious one culture is going to emerge superior, even if it will take a couple of generations, which in my opinion, is, like I said, a "natural selection" of culture.
    Islam has been around for well over a millenia and it still has not emerged as a dominant culture. If its values truly are greater than Western ones then its taking its time, don't you think? Because the Muslim community is so insular and disapproves so strongly of relationships between followers and non-followers I fail to see how this natural selection will take place.

    Group A sounds much better. People in group A have a choice to buy alcohol, drugs, fast cars, grossly expensive clothes, they have a choice to buy whatever they like if they have the money. This choice leads to consumerism and competition between companies to produce decent products. This is important - look what happen in the USSR its Eastern European satelites when they took away consumerism, there was no competition and the state run supermarkets, restraunts, etc were crappy and provided poor service. Money is very important, it makes people happy, and not just in material ways, a country that has competition and consumerism has a strong economy which it can use to improve education and standard of living, which is very high in secular Western countries, compared to Muslim countries where standard of living is very low.

    Do Muslim countries not have a birth-work-consume-die culture? They're born, just like us. They work, just like us. They consume, just like us. They die, just like us. Only difference is the majority of them earn a lot less than the majority of Westerners so they have a lot less money to buy things with.

    I'm sure a child would rather have its parents divorced than living unhappily together. Its a good thing that a couple have the freedom to acknowledge that they made a mistake and can seperate. People who can't find a job or are unable to work need to be supported. Its a good thing that we have a welfare system that can support them. Its a good thing that we put criminals in prisons rather than execute them, and its a good thing we are tolerant enough to accept homosexuals rather than persecute them.

    Lots of Westerners value family and community, striving to better yourself, and a strong sense of justice. I see no reason for a complete loyalty to your partner. If you've fallen out of love with someone you shouldn't feel forced to stay with them. And why do you think people should have so many kids? Its good that Westerners only have so many as they can support, I'm happy my parents only had 2 children and didn't struggled to bring up 8.

    All you've done is made me even more convinced Western civilization is better than Islamic civilization.
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    (Original post by Selkarn)
    Well, define drone and we can continue.

    My personal definition of drone in this context are people who do not think for themselves, just mindlessly follow others/the path they are set upon. I therefore think that the typical non-Muslims have much more of a drone mentality than Muslims.
    My definition of a drone is someone who accepts what they are told without questioning it, or indeed even thinking of questioning it. They are unable to correctly process information they are given; unable to weight it properly, to consider the source as well as the content. In essence they cannot think critically.
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    (Original post by Tesphena)
    I have friends and family who I love and respect. But I also like having nice things. Having money and being able to buy good clothes and good food is important to me. There's nothing wrong with that. Doesn't mean I'm going to pull a knife on someone because I want their money. Just because a person enjoys money and material things doesn't mean they're a bad person.

    There's nothing wrong with materialism.



    If people aren't going to die from alcohol-related diseases they are going to die of something else. Unless you're drinking methylated spirits every day the effects of alcohol intake are going to take decades to have any real physical impact. And who wants to live until they're 80 or 90 anyway? If a child is binge drinking at 14 the problem is bad parenting not alcohol.

    There's nothing wrong with alcohol.



    I've had sexual encounters with lots of people, and I've ever had a "partner". My friends are also all very open sexually. None of us have ever received an STD, and none of them have ever been pregnant. We've never even had a scare before. We're careful and sensible. We get regular check-ups and always use protection. A person can enjoy casual sex and still have enough morality to know they've got to be responsible.

    There's nothing wrong with casual sex.



    The biggest killer in the UK is actually heart disease. As with alcohol if smoking takes decades to have any impact on the body and if it isn't going to kill you then something else is. There's no harm in experimenting. When I was younger I smoked a few cigarettes, that's how I know I don't like them. Any moral smoker will know not to smoke whilst pregnant and not to smoke around children, even though there has still not been any conclusive proof that second hand smoke is detrimental to anyone's health. Why should tobacco be beaten? If people enjoy smoking it that's their damn business.

    There's nothing wrong with soft drugs.

    My brain cells are perfectly fine thank-you, they're working well enough to tell my not to listen to asshats on the internet trying to push their beliefs on other people.
    Having money, good clothes and food are necessities and not materialism. Materialism is a superfluous want for materials that you don't actually need. Everybody needs gadgets or whatnot to keep them entertained and satisfied. However Saddam Hussein's 20 presidential palaces is an example of materialism. That $7 billion worth could have been invested in education, health or food for his country. Thus I totally refute your claim that "there's nothing wrong with materialism."

    Please elaborate how a deceased alcoholic would have died of something else had they not drunk alcohol? Alcohol consumption does not "take decades to have any real physical impact." It takes just a few hours of alcohol poisoning to have critical and often deadly effects on its user. You may not appreciate life as someone else does so don't generalise. I am sure those hundred of thousands of old hospitalised patients would love to reach 80 or 90. Just because a child makes a mistake does not mean it's the parent's fault. There's something called surroundings which may not be necessarily good. On the contrary, alcohol is renowned for its medicinal purposes so it has its pros and cons. Pity you are too ignorant and/or narrow-minded that you can't acknowledge the detrimental effects it can have.

    I am very happy for you and your friends' open sexuality. It's also breathtakingly magnificent that you haven't contracted an STD as much as it is resplendently superb that you haven't been impregnated. Oh, and not to mention the exquisite elevation and pride I get from your responsibility and attentiveness. But since when did your group of friends represent the nation?

    As much as I dislike tobacco and the disgusting substances we all have to endure as secondhand smokers, tobacco is one of the least harmful drug there is. I didn't say tobacco should be beaten per se. That's more or less impossible. However 14 year old's and such should not be encouraged to experiment, because the millions of smokers who die prematurely only just 'experimented' at first. And unfortunately due to the lack of morals many parents have, smoking around their children or pregnant isn't going to bother them one bit. Scientists have conducted many experiments on passive smoking to discover the correlation between deaths and passive smoking and there is evidence. The law hasn't banned smoking in public places for nothing. Drugs such as tobacco clearly do pose problems, however it does not make someone immoral.

    I am not trying to push my beliefs on people. Especially not on a forum full of ignorant (cough), idiotic, narrow-minded creatures such as yourself. Don't even reply.
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    (Original post by Nayred)
    Having money, good clothes and food are necessities and not materialism. Materialism is a superfluous want for materials that you don't actually need. Everybody needs gadgets or whatnot to keep them entertained and satisfied. However Saddam Hussein's 20 presidential palaces is an example of materialism. That $7 billion worth could have been invested in education, health or food for his country. Thus I totally refute your claim that "there's nothing wrong with materialism."
    How many people do you know with 20 presidential palaces? Its hardly a common issue. And I'm pretty sure Saddam Hussein is a Muslim which kinda negates an earlier point. . .

    Please elaborate how a deceased alcoholic would have died of something else had they not drunk alcohol? Alcohol consumption does not "take decades to have any real physical impact." It takes just a few hours of alcohol poisoning to have critical and often deadly effects on its user. You may not appreciate life as someone else does so don't generalise. I am sure those hundred of thousands of old hospitalised patients would love to reach 80 or 90. Just because a child makes a mistake does not mean it's the parent's fault. There's something called surroundings which may not be necessarily good. On the contrary, alcohol is renowned for its medicinal purposes so it has its pros and cons. Pity you are too ignorant and/or narrow-minded that you can't acknowledge the detrimental effects it can have.
    If I'm not going to die of liver cirrhosis I'm going to die of cancer or heart disease. I'm dying at some point, so whatever. And alcohol poisoning will only take you take quick if you drink an incredible amount at once. I acknowledge the detrimental affects of alcohol, I also don't give a crap because I know I drink a sensible amount.

    I am very happy for you and your friends' open sexuality. It's also breathtakingly magnificent that you haven't contracted an STD as much as it is resplendently superb that you haven't been impregnated. Oh, and not to mention the exquisite elevation and pride I get from your responsibility and attentiveness. But since when did your group of friends represent the nation?
    I was using me and my friends as an example of how sexual freedom and morality can co-exist. With sex health clinics, condoms, implants, and morning after pills me and my friends were never at any real risk. Uninhibited sex carries no risk to anyone who is careful.

    As much as I dislike tobacco and the disgusting substances we all have to endure as secondhand smokers, tobacco is one of the least harmful drug there is. I didn't say tobacco should be beaten per se. That's more or less impossible. However 14 year old's and such should not be encouraged to experiment, because the millions of smokers who die prematurely only just 'experimented' at first. And unfortunately due to the lack of morals many parents have, smoking around their children or pregnant isn't going to bother them one bit. Scientists have conducted many experiments on passive smoking to discover the correlation between deaths and passive smoking and there is evidence. The law hasn't banned smoking in public places for nothing. Drugs such as tobacco clearly do pose problems, however it does not make someone immoral.
    How do you know if something is good or not unless you try it? They have proven correlation between passive smoking and health damage but not cause. Still fail to see how tobacco, cannabis, LSD and other soft drugs cause issue if you use them properly. . .

    I am not trying to push my beliefs on people. Especially not on a forum full of ignorant (cough), idiotic, narrow-minded creatures such as yourself. Don't even reply.
    Why should I not reply? What you've done is provided a series of extreme examples of the harms of materialism, alcohol, sexual promiscuity and drugs. What I have done is shown that experienced responsibly, none of those are harmful.
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    (Original post by Evil Monkey)
    Also, lol at bringing up the DailyMail as a credible source for anything. As though they won't spin a bias into the story at all.
    glad someone pointed this out!
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    Does noone find it funny that Muslims will go on and on about how Islam is perfect, and their way of life will dominate and so on? Well kids, you've had what, 1400 years? Not doing too well so far. And if we take a look at the Islamic world, oh, awkward..........

    Yeah, Islam is in no way inherently better than a Western way of life. We had something a little like it back around 1500 AD. We called it Catholicsm. We decided we didn't like it's opressive nature, it's arbitrary nature, and you know, all the corruption and hypocrisy inherent within such faiths. Maybe you guys are, understandably 500 years or so behind us. So, well, look at the West, that's how it's gunna be in another 400 years. Not an Islamic dominated world. We've fought through that sort of opression and we are in no hurry for a regression to the 16th century.

    Kind Regards, most of Europe.
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    (Original post by Steevee)
    Does noone find it funny that Muslims will go on and on about how Islam is perfect, and their way of life will dominate and so on? Well kids, you've had what, 1400 years? Not doing too well so far. And if we take a look at the Islamic world, oh, awkward..........

    Yeah, Islam is in no way inherently better than a Western way of life. We had something a little like it back around 1500 AD. We called it Catholicsm. We decided we didn't like it's opressive nature, it's arbitrary nature, and you know, all the corruption and hypocrisy inherent within such faiths. Maybe you guys are, understandably 500 years or so behind us. So, well, look at the West, that's how it's gunna be in another 400 years. Not an Islamic dominated world. We've fought through that sort of opression and we are in no hurry for a regression to the 16th century.

    Kind Regards, most of Europe.
    inshallah we will make the western countries back the way it should be like the 16th Century
 
 
 
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