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Two arrested in Paris for Burqa protests, as well as dozens of others watch

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    (Original post by mandds)
    Why don't you try it out yourself. Put jacket or t-shirt around your head like burqa and you'll see that your vision is not the same as without the burqa. Most driving accidents happen because people didn't look good or didn't see something!
    Yes I have tried it. Its fine. Its like a helmet, which bikers wear.
    Vision is not effected at all.

    Yes most accidents do happen for the reason you explained and obviously because of drinking and driving but no burka does not effected ones vision and burka wearers are highly unlikely to be drunk.
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    (Original post by CombineHarvester)
    The obvious difference between a balaclava and a niqab/burqa which covers the entire body is that it's easy to pull off a balaclava whereas someone who wears a burqa/niqab will stick out like a sore thumb for a long time. It's hardly an easily disposable disguise, robbing a bank dressed as a clown would be easier.
    Hahaha I really want someone to do that. That would be funny. But people have robbed banks in burqas before, they don't need to pull it off they just jump in the getaway car...

    (Original post by pHneutral)
    In the same way one cannot make a causal connection that wearing the burka reduces scurity of people and might increase crime rate.
    Well if othe people (non-muslims) wear the burka in the non-muslims countires to commit crime, thats their proplem, why should people who have nothing to do with it have to suffer. Crimes have been commited in the past by people breaking into banks etc covering their faces for a long time now-not a new story , it was dealt before and so can be done now.

    You asked about how can you tell the difference between an ordinary woman and a criminal when they are both entirely covered by a veil, well the answer is, those that want to commit a crime -are breaking the law anyway by comminting the crime and so dont care and will cover their face anyway. Ban on Burka wont help at all since the criminals (who do not care about one law) will also break another law and carry out the crime while wearing the burka.

    However, if someone is caught doing the crime all you have to do is quiet simply ask them to show their face- and you identify them. Simple- muslim women according to their religious veiws are completely allowed to their their faces for identification. IT really is possible if one intended to do justice.

    From personal experience, I have seen veiled women simply being asked by police to show their faces and they would happily do it. Whats interesting for me is that according to islamic law, inside courts and other places where identity and testomony matters, they are not even allowed to wear the burka. For instance in Saudia abrabia, when women are called inside the witness box, they show their faces.

    Criminals are identified by many things today using DNA, fingerprints, etc...
    Your argument in bold isnt valid because usually criminals are not caught doing the crime anyway! Its afterwards that the evidence points out towards them. And if someone is seen commiting a crime in a burka-well then the police is informed and they can deal with her by un veiling her!

    I really do respect peoples' concern for safety, but I really feel this is just restriction on peoples freedom.> it wont end here. Sikh's turbans will be next, it will go on and on.

    These days now you cannot even wear a hoody in the Uk in some places like Bluewater! Thats too restrictive.

    I Hope didnt cause any offence.
    Ok, I'll reply one point at a time.
    Firstly, you implied that the reason crime rate is low in largely muslim countries is that women wear burkas, whereas I simply said the fact you can't see their faces causes POTENTIAL for crime in Western countries, I never said "crime is going up, must be cause of burkas".

    Secondly, it's a shame that people choose to use burkas for the purposes of crime, but they can't just ban criminals from wearing them and not everyone else, how are they supposed to tell? I understand what you're saying about how it's unfair that these women aren't allowed to wear what they want, but if I went to another country and wore something that potentially endangered the civilians of that country and/or made them feel uncomfortable, I'd understand why they might ask for me not to wear it. This is not intended as a personal attack on them, as some people are claiming, it's for protection of the country's people, including muslims.

    And thirdly, it's interesting you should say that these women happily show their faces to police officers cause ive never heard of that happening before, but then I suppose that might be due to the fact that the media hype up all these stories about some very select few women who kick up a stink about being asked to show their faces, didnt one take someone to court for pulling her veil off after she had refused to do it? Perhaps it's these few stubborn women causing the rest to suffer.

    If they tried to ban things like turbans or headscarves, then I certainly wouldnt agree and I think a lot more people wouldnt. Ive never known anyone to be intimidated by them or put at risk by them, theyre perfectly acceptable. I think the burka ban is the limit.

    Thanks for your politeness, if only more people on here were like that...
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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VpMI...1&feature=fvwp
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    The French are just enforcing there constitution. Open displays of Christianity are not allowed either. I see no problem

    Our constitution is different, I would not support a ban in Britain.
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    I'm glad that France had the sense to ban the Burqa for drivers.

    I've seen a number of ladies driving in my city wearing Burqas and its just terrifying, how the hell can they see anything ?
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    (Original post by Mad Cat Lady)
    Hahaha I really want someone to do that. That would be funny. But people have robbed banks in burqas before, they don't need to pull it off they just jump in the getaway car...
    Yes but how common is it? Men have robbed banks dressed as women, clowns, Darth Vader, Santa Claus, a white guy made himself black etc etc. we don't ban all of those do we? Anyway, shops, banks, jewellery stores etc. can already ask customers to reveal their face or take off hats so there's no need for a new law. You can't go into many restaurants or nightclubs wearing pyjamas or veils (although masks for fancy dress may be allowed).
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    they start a protest with a giant sign reading Shariah for france - yeah that will go down well
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    (Original post by hatemylife)
    Wikipedia :rolleyes:

    Anyway, 9/10 Spaniards are Catholic yet according to that they don't have an official religion, and Spain has an illustrious history of Catholics and Muslims. Their presence in Spain didn't go down too well.
    Because Spain doesn't have a state religion! State religion is when the church is involved in government. Just because 9/10 of the country is catholic doesn't mean it is the state religion! the majority of France is also catholic
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    (Original post by shadow99)
    I'm glad that France had the sense to ban the Burqa for drivers.

    I've seen a number of ladies driving in my city wearing Burqas and its just terrifying, how the hell can they see anything ?
    Err...because their eyes are uncovered? You do realise that so long as your eyes are not covered your vision will be fine? Covering your cheeks, forehead and mouth has no effect on your vision because you can't see through them. Can you tell if there's something on your face without looking at a mirror?

    Does it terrify you when you see motorcyclists wearing full face helmets with black visors (note they often wear balaclavas underneath)? What if he was driving a car, would that terrify you? What if he was wearing sunglasses instead, they cover his eyes :eek:
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    Good!

    I don't understand why people choose/are forced to wear clothing that makes the people look like dementors.

    Turkey and Egypt have banned it, and they are predominantly Muslim countries, so don't try and play the 'because Islam says so' card.

    I love the UKs double standards though. Burqas/Niqabs are allowed to be worn inside public places but not motorbike helmets or balaclavas.
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    (Original post by Mad Cat Lady)
    Hahaha I really want someone to do that. That would be funny. But people have robbed banks in burqas before, they don't need to pull it off they just jump in the getaway car...



    Ok, I'll reply one point at a time.
    Firstly, you implied that the reason crime rate is low in largely muslim countries is that women wear burkas, whereas I simply said the fact you can't see their faces causes POTENTIAL for crime in Western countries, I never said "crime is going up, must be cause of burkas".

    Secondly, it's a shame that people choose to use burkas for the purposes of crime, but they can't just ban criminals from wearing them and not everyone else, how are they supposed to tell? I understand what you're saying about how it's unfair that these women aren't allowed to wear what they want, but if I went to another country and wore something that potentially endangered the civilians of that country and/or made them feel uncomfortable, I'd understand why they might ask for me not to wear it. This is not intended as a personal attack on them, as some people are claiming, it's for protection of the country's people, including muslims.

    And thirdly, it's interesting you should say that these women happily show their faces to police officers cause ive never heard of that happening before, but then I suppose that might be due to the fact that the media hype up all these stories about some very select few women who kick up a stink about being asked to show their faces, didnt one take someone to court for pulling her veil off after she had refused to do it? Perhaps it's these few stubborn women causing the rest to suffer.

    If they tried to ban things like turbans or headscarves, then I certainly wouldnt agree and I think a lot more people wouldnt. Ive never known anyone to be intimidated by them or put at risk by them, theyre perfectly acceptable. I think the burka ban is the limit.

    Thanks for your politeness, if only more people on here were like that...
    (Original post by Mad Cat Lady)
    Hahaha I really want someone to do that. That would be funny. But people have robbed banks in burqas before, they don't need to pull it off they just jump in the getaway car...

    Ok, I'll reply one point at a time.
    Firstly, you implied that the reason crime rate is low in largely muslim countries is that women wear burkas, whereas I simply said the fact you can't see their faces causes POTENTIAL for crime in Western countries, I never said "crime is going up, must be cause of burkas".

    Secondly, it's a shame that people choose to use burkas for the purposes of crime, but they can't just ban criminals from wearing them and not everyone else, how are they supposed to tell? I understand what you're saying about how it's unfair that these women aren't allowed to wear what they want, but if I went to another country and wore something that potentially endangered the civilians of that country and/or made them feel uncomfortable, I'd understand why they might ask for me not to wear it. This is not intended as a personal attack on them, as some people are claiming, it's for protection of the country's people, including muslims.

    And thirdly, it's interesting you should say that these women happily show their faces to police officers cause ive never heard of that happening before, but then I suppose that might be due to the fact that the media hype up all these stories about some very select few women who kick up a stink about being asked to show their faces, didnt one take someone to court for pulling her veil off after she had refused to do it? Perhaps it's these few stubborn women causing the rest to suffer.

    If they tried to ban things like turbans or headscarves, then I certainly wouldnt agree and I think a lot more people wouldnt. Ive never known anyone to be intimidated by them or put at risk by them, theyre perfectly acceptable. I think the burka ban is the limit.

    Thanks for your politeness, if only more people on here were like that...
    1. I did not imply that. I think one shouldnt imply that burka will increase crime rate either-'potencial' isnt enough ban something!
    What makes you think these burka women are from other countries going to france? My friends, some are french nationals themselves who dont know any other place and love france more than anyhting have a problem. I think someone posted a video to do with this.

    2. People feeling 'uncomfortable' isnt enough to ban something. Once I was in London, oxford street I think it was and two women were publically kisssing full on. Few british (white women) were disturbed by that. I did not find it pleasant. But that does not mean because one is a monority and majority feel uncomfortable, lets ban it! If one doesnt agree with the actually act, it does not mean they start enforcing the others to stop it.

    3. You stated you understand its unfair. If you do agree it is unfair, then you would also understand that everything should be done within peoples' power to get rid of unjustice.

    4. As far as women who refused to show their faces, well they can be dealth with. Arrested or whatever or there could be a reason why they made a fuss, maybe they got sworn at, or physically pushed about. They can be dealth with as other people who refuse to co-operate wiht police are. This is yet not enough to ban it.

    see where you are coming from about them banning hijab, but I really think, we feel this might be the limit. But it isnt. Who decides the limit?
    Ban on hoodies was not liked by people in certain areas in the UK but we couldnt do anything since the government has learnt that we just believe in them, do nothing if peoples' freedom is restricted.

    ALL people need to have feedom and that is all -this really isnt a safety issue. Maybe it seems like it, but it isnt. I really have seen so many of burka women (obviously london has every type of people) and it really is fine.

    I feel people should be more open minded to it. More liberal. If one is personally not sure, thats fine but just be open minded and not anti-it. It just creates an unpleasant feeling. Do give it another thought please.:rolleyes:

    Politeness is obviously a must.
    and yeah I wish more people were polite too..discussions would be more productive.
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    It's simply France avenging their failure in stopping the niqaab being worn in Algeria.
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    (Original post by hatemylife)
    Shouldn't be allowed at the expense of security and peace of mind. It's terrifying walking down a street with a load of faceless creatures.
    your nan's a faceless creature, yet she doesn't wear a burka.
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    (Original post by CombineHarvester)
    Yes but how common is it? Men have robbed banks dressed as women, clowns, Darth Vader, Santa Claus, a white guy made himself black etc etc. we don't ban all of those do we? Anyway, shops, banks, jewellery stores etc. can already ask customers to reveal their face or take off hats so there's no need for a new law. You can't go into many restaurants or nightclubs wearing pyjamas or veils (although masks for fancy dress may be allowed).
    Heh, see my above post (I think its my third point to the other guy).
    All I can say is, Ive never felt intimidated by a dude in a Santa costume :ahee: I see the point youre making, but the fact is that very very few people walk around in fancy dress unless its halloween, and even then people dont really have a reason not to show their faces or take their masks off when asked, whereas some women when asked to remove the veil will say no, theyre not allowed to show their faces to men, which is why they wear it in the first place.
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    The ban is correct and justified, as Muslim women should only be wearing the Hijab. The Burka is NEVER mentioned. Those who wear the Burka are usually pressured into doing so. It is a security risk to not be able to see somone.

    It is not an insult at Islam, as Women are only Islamically supposed to be wearing the Hijab (covering the hair rather than whole body) rather than the Burka (which covers the whole body).
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    (Original post by Stratos)
    I don't understand their ban, maybe if there was a statistic proving people wearing bhurkas commit crime at a excessively high rate, otherwise it is simply stupid.

    How about we ban hats, beards and pockets since they may hide weapons.

    Irrational fear shouldn't be a reason for law making.



    That's simply ridiculous, how do you know that wearing a burqa increases traffic accidents, where's your evidence?
    A woman in a burka crashed a car in france one and a princess died so ....
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    (Original post by Mad Cat Lady)
    Heh, see my above post (I think its my third point to the other guy).
    All I can say is, Ive never felt intimidated by a dude in a Santa costume :ahee: I see the point youre making, but the fact is that very very few people walk around in fancy dress unless its halloween, and even then people dont really have a reason not to show their faces or take their masks off when asked, whereas some women when asked to remove the veil will say no, theyre not allowed to show their faces to men, which is why they wear it in the first place.
    Someone dressed as a clown or santa has never taken off their costume because I've asked, it'd ruin their entire appearance. In fact, I've never asked anyone to take off an item of clothing in public. If I owned a shop or a bank then I might have a sign up saying you have to keep your face uncovered but that's already the case in the UK. Women wearing the niqab already aren't allowed into private institutions which ban them, many banks included. Also I've seen far more people in the UK wearing masks or disguises than I have wearing the burqa, although I don't see the relevance of quantity in this matter.
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    (Original post by Humz7)
    your nan's a faceless creature, yet she doesn't wear a burka.
    Please try to be respectful to others, regardless of what you are arguing for.
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    (Original post by pHneutral)
    1. I did not imply that. I think one shouldnt imply that burka will increase crime rate either-'potencial' isnt enough ban something!
    What makes you think these burka women are from other countries going to france? My friends, some are french nationals themselves who dont know any other place and love france more than anyhting have a problem. I think someone posted a video to do with this.

    2. People feeling 'uncomfortable' isnt enough to ban something. Once I was in London, oxford street I think it was and two women were publically kisssing full on. Few british (white women) were disturbed by that. I did not find it pleasant. But that does not mean because one is a monority and majority feel uncomfortable, lets ban it! If one doesnt agree with the actually act, it does not mean they start enforcing the others to stop it.

    3. You stated you understand its unfair. If you do agree it is unfair, then you would also understand that everything should be done within peoples' power to get rid of unjustice.

    4. As far as women who refused to show their faces, well they can be dealth with. Arrested or whatever or there could be a reason why they made a fuss, maybe they got sworn at, or physically pushed about. They can be dealth with as other people who refuse to co-operate wiht police are. This is yet not enough to ban it.

    see where you are coming from about them banning hijab, but I really think, we feel this might be the limit. But it isnt. Who decides the limit?
    Ban on hoodies was not liked by people in certain areas in the UK but we couldnt do anything since the government has learnt that we just believe in them, do nothing if peoples' freedom is restricted.

    ALL people need to have feedom and that is all -this really isnt a safety issue. Maybe it seems like it, but it isnt. I really have seen so many of burka women (obviously london has every type of people) and it really is fine.

    I feel people should be more open minded to it. More liberal. If one is personally not sure, thats fine but just be open minded and not anti-it. It just creates an unpleasant feeling. Do give it another thought please.:rolleyes:

    Politeness is obviously a must.
    and yeah I wish more people were polite too..discussions would be more productive.
    Ok, just a few responses...
    1. I think potential is a good reason for a ban actually, no point in closing the gate after the horse has bolted.
    2. I didnt say people feeling uncomfortable was the only reason. Public displays of affection are actually quite frowned upon in Britain (but perhaps not so much london... hahah), but it doesnt pose a danger to anyone, its just kinda gross...
    3. Ah, a little contradiction here. Say someone convicted of crimes is walking around the streets in a burqa, and it's hard to catch them cause no one can see their face. Those who they have committed crimes against, know this person isnt coming to justice because they arent being found. So its not FAIR that these people cant wear their burqas from their points of view, but it's necessary for other people to be brought to justice.
    4. These are the people who pull out the racist card though. They give the police a bad name by calling them racists for arresting them, they claim that being made to show their face goes against their rights. So often they can't really be dealt with, fear is stricken into the police about people labelling them as racist, so they try not to argue too much with people who refuse to show their faces.

    People say a lot of things about "freedom" and open-mindedness when arguing for things like burqas, then as soon as someone mentions, say, the BNP, these people are all ANTI ANTI ANTI! freedom and open-mindedness goes two ways you know. If those people can't accept the freedom of EVERYONE else, they can't expect people to accept their freedom. (Btw I am NOT a BNP supporter at all. I'm just getting a point across.)
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    Loving the demonstrations....What the hell are they trying to achieve with those kind of signs lol?
 
 
 
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