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Two arrested in Paris for Burqa protests, as well as dozens of others watch

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    (Original post by pHneutral)
    Do you have personal experience?
    What is your claim based on?

    I know many women who are wonderful drivers in the UK -they have not only passed their tests first time round but have clean records too.

    Such big claims cannot be made just like that.
    The claim is based on common sense. When driving you need to be able to see all around, you can't do that wearing a burka.
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    (Original post by Mad Cat Lady)
    Ok, just a few responses...
    1. I think potential is a good reason for a ban actually, no point in closing the gate after the horse has bolted.
    2. I didnt say people feeling uncomfortable was the only reason. Public displays of affection are actually quite frowned upon in Britain (but perhaps not so much london... hahah), but it doesnt pose a danger to anyone, its just kinda gross...

    3. Ah, a little contradiction here. Say someone convicted of crimes is walking around the streets in a burqa, and it's hard to catch them cause no one can see their face. Those who they have committed crimes against, know this person isnt coming to justice because they arent being found. So its not FAIR that these people cant wear their burqas from their points of view, but it's necessary for other people to be brought to justice.

    4. These are the people who pull out the racist card though. They give the police a bad name by calling them racists for arresting them, they claim that being made to show their face goes against their rights. So often they can't really be dealt with, fear is stricken into the police about people labelling them as racist, so they try not to argue too much with people who refuse to show their faces.

    People say a lot of things about "freedom" and open-mindedness when arguing for things like burqas, then as soon as someone mentions, say, the BNP, these people are all ANTI ANTI ANTI! freedom and open-mindedness goes two ways you know. If those people can't accept the freedom of EVERYONE else, they can't expect people to accept their freedom. (Btw I am NOT a BNP supporter at all. I'm just getting a point across.)
    1. Potencial isnt a good enough reason. Tea and coffe would have long gone by now as every now and then research comes out showing how they are harmful.

    2. Public display doesnt pose a danger. But same way many people feel burka doenst either. Thats all down to opinions really.

    3. If someone is running around the streets in a burka and cant be caught, whats that got to do with banning it full stop? So if bikers are not caught over speeding beacuse of helmets, should helmets be banned? Re crime- same point again. Ban will not help as those who want to commit crime will do so anyway- as far as not being caught beacuse they were in a burka, well its the same as how its been in the past many decades. People do crimes hiding their face, either they are caught or they are not. It has nothing to do with simply banning it. Once you have banned it, muslims and non-muslims who want to commit crime which is breaking the law will do so anyway, if they are breaking one law, might as well break two. We can do circular reasoning all day along. All I am saying is, banning the burka does not achieve anything.

    4. rasist cards- if they are dealt with properly, thats polices problem. Not everyone else. Police should be strict and deal wiht them justly regardless of what they are called or labled. Polices' fear is their problem. not justified to take away peoples freedom.

    5. Your point about freedom..BNP. Open mindedness goes to two ways yes, and freedom is for everyone too as long as nobody is coming out and preaching hatred openly. Since BNP's work is not relevant here, I wont mention it. Either europe should let people do what they want (dress how they want) or take the claim about providing freedom -ban of burka is double standards since it is taking away freedom.
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    (Original post by A Mysterious Lord)
    The claim is based on common sense. When driving you need to be able to see all around, you can't do that wearing a burka.
    Many believe 'you can do that wearing a burka' just like a helemet also based on common sense.
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    I just noticed in the pictures they spelt Sarkozy wrong, unless they learn to spell no one will take them seriously... not that it matters much as France is a Christian Nation with Christian Values...

    (I know France is secular but this is Sarkozy's view ).
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    (Original post by Stratos)
    I don't understand their ban, maybe if there was a statistic proving people wearing bhurkas commit crime at a excessively high rate, otherwise it is simply stupid.

    How about we ban hats, beards and pockets since they may hide weapons.

    Irrational fear shouldn't be a reason for law making.



    That's simply ridiculous, how do you know that wearing a burqa increases traffic accidents, where's your evidence?
    The difference with pockets, hats etc is that if they do conceal a weapon which is later revealed, you can then identify the person through analysing whatever facial features they have on show. With absolutely no facial features on show (but for the barely revealed eyes) this is impossible. It's as good as wearing a mask.

    Also, there have been instances such as this (in addition to the man who disguised himself as a woman using a burkha in an attempt to commit a suicide bombing): -

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...es-stolen.html

    It's not an irrational fear. Even if they don't commit any crimes, not being able to see any part of a person's body is unsettling. Faces are very important to human beings in social interactions, and without seeing someone's face it is difficult to form any kind of real connection with them.
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    (Original post by pHneutral)
    1. Potencial isnt a good enough reason. Tea and coffe would have long gone by now as every now and then research comes out showing how they are harmful.

    2. Public display doesnt pose a danger. But same way many people feel burka doenst either. Thats all down to opinions really.

    3. If someone is running around the streets in a burka and cant be caught, whats that got to do with banning it full stop? So if bikers are not caught over speeding beacuse of helmets, should helmets be banned? Re crime- same point again. Ban will not help as those who want to commit crime will do so anyway- as far as not being caught beacuse they were in a burka, well its the same as how its been in the past many decades. People do crimes hiding their face, either they are caught or they are not. It has nothing to do with simply banning it. Once you have banned it, muslims and non-muslims who want to commit crime which is breaking the law will do so anyway, if they are breaking one law, might as well break two. We can do circular reasoning all day along. All I am saying is, banning the burka does not achieve anything.

    4. rasist cards- if they are dealt with properly, thats polices problem. Not everyone else. Police should be strict and deal wiht them justly regardless of what they are called or labled. Polices' fear is their problem. not justified to take away peoples freedom.

    5. Your point about freedom..BNP. Open mindedness goes to two ways yes, and freedom is for everyone too as long as nobody is coming out and preaching hatred openly. Since BNP's work is not relevant here, I wont mention it. Either europe should let people do what they want (dress how they want) or take the claim about providing freedom -ban of burka is double standards since it is taking away freedom.
    Ok, I think we should agree to disagree here, cause the only thing which will resolve this is seeing the result of the ban. I guess it's just all based on opinion at this time, but we will see whether it was the right thing to do or not, effectively nobody knows at the moment. Thanks for the debate, its been good See you around, friend.
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    (Original post by mandds)
    Coming from the country who banned minarets, I have to say that I think it's good that France banned the burqa it is a suppression of the women. If they can't accept local rules, they're free to go back from where they came from. I just saw a picture of a woman, who's protesting against the burqa ban, getting into her car and in my opinion wearing a burqa and driving a car shouldn't be allowed. Her sight is really big enough.
    Suppression? They wear it because they WANT to, it is not a requirement in Islam. And back where they come from? There are plenty of people who have been born there and their parents were also from there...
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    It's a good day for freedom :congrats:
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    (Original post by A Mysterious Lord)
    The claim is based on common sense. When driving you need to be able to see all around, you can't do that wearing a burka.
    Uh and a helmet?
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    ZzZzZz, another Muslim news story, my word the bigotry is constant and mainsteam...
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    (Original post by tehFrance)
    I just noticed in the pictures they spelt Sarkozy wrong, unless they learn to spell no one will take them seriously... not that it matters much as France is a Christian Nation with Christian Values...

    (I know France is secular but this is Sarkozy's view ).
    Since we are so hell bent on Laicite, that was a bad move for Sarkozy if he did say that.

    Meh he'll be out anyway
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    Please Cameron - look at this and please follow suit. I am sick and tired of seeing black shadows walking around my country.
    - Mike, Lancs, 11/4/2011 11:12

    Stupid daily mail bigot!
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    (Original post by JongKey)
    Uh and a helmet?
    Stupid analogy, a better comparison would be wearing a hooded top or a raincoat. You try looking directly behind you with a hood up (while staying in the same position i.e. in a car seat with seatbelt on), you won't have 100% unobstructed vision without taking it down.

    It's the same reason cyclists shouldn't ride with hoods up (I'm talking proper cyclists abiding by the laws, not chavs on stolen BMXs).
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    (Original post by HighestKungFu)
    The difference with pockets, hats etc is that if they do conceal a weapon which is later revealed, you can then identify the person through analysing whatever facial features they have on show. With absolutely no facial features on show (but for the barely revealed eyes) this is impossible. It's as good as wearing a mask.

    Also, there have been instances such as this (in addition to the man who disguised himself as a woman using a burkha in an attempt to commit a suicide bombing): -

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...es-stolen.html

    It's not an irrational fear. Even if they don't commit any crimes, not being able to see any part of a person's body is unsettling. Faces are very important to human beings in social interactions, and without seeing someone's face it is difficult to form any kind of real connection with them.
    There's been far more armed robberies, thefts, rapes, assaults, murders etc. carried out by people wearing no disguises whatsoever. This ban is hardly for security purposes anyway since the law already allows property owners to discriminate on dress code, it happens all the time already.
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    Burqas are unnecessary, as is the law which forbids them in France- it's all unnecessary.
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    (Original post by JongKey)
    Suppression? They wear it because they WANT to, it is not a requirement in Islam. And back where they come from? There are plenty of people who have been born there and their parents were also from there...
    Yeah right they WANT to. Of course it's not a requirement of the Islam but it's in the Sharia Law, which does suppress women. I don't care from where they are, but they have to accept the laws and the culture in the country were they live in.
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    (Original post by mandds)
    Yeah right they WANT to. Of course it's not a requirement of the Islam but it's in the Sharia Law, which does suppress women. I don't care from where they are, but they have to accept the laws and the culture in the country were they live in.
    As far as I know shariah law and Islam are not synonymous.
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    (Original post by mandds)
    Yeah right they WANT to. Of course it's not a requirement of the Islam but it's in the Sharia Law, which does suppress women. I don't care from where they are, but they have to accept the laws and the culture in the country were they live in.
    It's not in the Shari'a though? Even if it was France isn't under Shari'a so clearly it's irrelevant. A bit like saying women used to wear petticoats in England when women were burned for being witches so if a woman wears a petticoat today in France they're being sexist against women?
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    to be fair..im a muslim and i think france has every right to ban the burka.

    it doesnt say in the qur'an...so its basically only a cultural thing. ive been brought up in the wester world..and whenever i go to the middle east..i have to cover up. i cant wear skirts or tank tops etc...even though its absolutely hot!!..so i dont see it as fair if i have to obey other peoples traditions, and then when they go somewhere else they cant stick to the rules.

    i think burkas and what ever else should be banned. but i think they should be allowed to wear head scarfs if they choose.
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    Unless you live in France, why do you care too much? Its not affecting Muslims in the UK or the rest of the world. It is up to France on what its laws are and its not as if they're beating or killing women who wear it. There's no real reason for people to get worked up so much, its not like there isn't discrimination going on in this country, surely we should be more concerned about the wrongs at home than those over the channel?
 
 
 
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