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    (Original post by LtCommanderData)
    Where are the hordes of commuters crushing him against the door? Bears only a cursory resemblance to the tube, to me
    They all got off when he got on
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    (Original post by LtCommanderData)
    I'm pretty sure the proportion of conservative (and other) MPs from ethnic minorities is significantly worse than the proportion of Oxford students from ethnic minorities. I'd be interested to see ethnicity statistics for employees of the conservative party, too.
    Yeah, but when he was a Buller he took a principled stand to ensure that the club represented a scrupulously fair cross section of the country in terms of race, sex and class

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    (Original post by Potiron)


    That be a Guardian, I think. He's a man of the people, on the tube and everything.
    The first thing I tried to do on seeing that is work out which tube line he's on. It's either the Jubilee or Northern line based on the type of train and since the map has no branches I think it's the Jubilee. Actually that would make sense since the Jubilee line goes through Westminster.
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    (Original post by Teebs)
    The first thing I tried to do on seeing that is work out which tube line he's on. It's either the Jubilee or Northern line based on the type of train and since the map has no branches I think it's the Jubilee. Actually that would make sense since the Jubilee line goes through Westminster.
    I did the same and went for the Jubilee from the style of train and the fact that there is an interchange at the 5th stop along on the map above his head, which corresponds to Wembley Park :five:
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    Cameron is just being a clever politician, striking at an easy target - someone under the cosh of any political persuasion would be advised to do the same so I don't think it's necessary to get the party differences out.

    I can only name one other university where every single candidate is interviewed in some form or another, of which I feel is a far fairer method of testing academic potential than a list of grades which are heavily determined by your upbringing. Thus the problem lies with the educational system, and yet instead the blame falls on Oxford. On my Cam interview day there were front page headlines about very low numbers of very poor (i.e. free school meals) students - yet again it was the same statistical messing then, as so very few even achieved the AAA necessary.

    I would say however that Oxford's lower interview rate to Cambridge is a slight disadvantage, but there are often more pre-interview examinations such as my own subject's HAT which could well even out the balance. Nevertheless the long and short of it is that the system at Oxbridge is far fairer than at the vast majority of other universities, and that's speaking as someone who was rejected from the likes of UCL because of irrelevant GCSE grades due to poor educational background...
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    (Original post by Teebs)
    The first thing I tried to do on seeing that is work out which tube line he's on. It's either the Jubilee or Northern line based on the type of train and since the map has no branches I think it's the Jubilee. Actually that would make sense since the Jubilee line goes through Westminster.
    I've been on the Northern line

    I was really disappointed to find that the trains weren't painted the same colours as they are on the map.
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    Only the far right can lead this country into greatness.
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    (Original post by Potiron)
    I've been on the Northern line
    Congratulations. Now you are truly a man.
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    (Original post by nexttime)
    What about this study which shows that if you are from a comprehensive school your degree attainment will be higher than someone with the same grades from a private or grammar school? Is discrimination justified then?

    I agree with you that race is completely irrelevant here - just with regards to the discrimination comment.

    EDIT: this would have been a better response to the next reply you made below.
    Isn't that partly the point of the interviews & also don't they in medicine use the gcse scores of people and adjust them according to their school, there might be something similar for other subjects but I don't know ?
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    (Original post by mf2004)
    Isn't that partly the point of the interviews & also don't they in medicine use the gcse scores of people and adjust them according to their school, there might be something similar for other subjects but I don't know ?
    Well they don't usually have a uniform system where like bad school = x points etc. The system is generally that they will make exceptions for people from very bad schools pre-interview, and then after that they 'consider all factors', so school quality could be considered yes - its very much down to the tutors.

    But the point is - they are saying that they will give extra credit to people from bad schools. Surely that is very much positive discrimination (and a good thing)?
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    (Original post by nexttime)
    Well they don't usually have a uniform system where like bad school = x points etc. The system is generally that they will make exceptions for people from very bad schools pre-interview, and then after that they 'consider all factors', so school quality could be considered yes - its very much down to the tutors.

    But the point is - they are saying that they will give extra credit to people from bad schools. Surely that is very much positive discrimination (and a good thing)?
    oh ok I'd heard differently.

    never said it wasn't, but I always thought that's kind of what they already did as they try and see how you think rather than what you know during the interviews (was definitely true of mine).

    They should let in the people who will do best on the course imo so it's not really discrimination to allow people from worse schools to get away with less good grades. Well at least not any more than it's discrimination to only let some people in.
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    (Original post by mf2004)
    oh ok I'd heard differently.

    never said it wasn't, but I always thought that's kind of what they already did as they try and see how you think rather than what you know during the interviews (was definitely true of mine).

    They should let in the people who will do best on the course imo so it's not really discrimination to allow people from worse schools to get away with less good grades. Well at least not any more than it's discrimination to only let some people in.
    I should say i was referring only to what i know from Oxford - i think Cambridge does have a more formal scoring of GCSEs based on school.

    Yeah i think a lot of this is about people's definitions of 'discrimination' - for me, if you let someone in with worse grades because they are from a worse school that is discrimination (even if they did this because this person is more likely to do well in the degree), whereas others apply it to more extreme measures where they no longer care about degree results.
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    David Cameron is a muppet, while Nick Clegg is a puppet.
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    (Original post by mf2004)
    They should let in the people who will do best on the course imo so it's not really discrimination to allow people from worse schools to get away with less good grades. Well at least not any more than it's discrimination to only let some people in.
    That could cause difficulties when articles like this come up though: http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/...ils-university
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    (Original post by la-dauphine)
    That could cause difficulties when articles like this come up though: http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/...ils-university
    ive had this discussion before, but i dont think you can say that A*A*A from a state school is better than A*A*A* from a private school and so the state schooler should get in. when you get to the top grades like you do at oxford/cambridge, everyone will get As without much trouble so im not sure that you can really extend the "state ABB = private AAA" idea to straight A students. at this point, i think everyone should be considered on better discriminators ie interviews and admissions tests which both test your natural knack for a subject far better than a levels do.

    i go to a state college but i dont like the idea of being given an easier offer because of that..
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    (Original post by RK92)
    ive had this discussion before, but i dont think you can say that A*A*A from a state school is better than A*A*A* from a private school and so the state schooler should get in. when you get to the top grades like you do at oxford/cambridge, everyone will get As without much trouble so im not sure that you can really extend the "state ABB = private AAA" idea to straight A students. at this point, i think everyone should be considered on better discriminators ie interviews and admissions tests which both test your natural knack for a subject far better than a levels do.

    i go to a state college but i dont like the idea of being given an easier offer because of that..
    I'm not suggesting that universities should discriminate by making lower offers to state school students: I was more responding to your idea that the students with the best A level grades will perform the best on a university course. It's evidence that state schools need to do more to help their students get the best grades. It's not true that private school students are automatically more intelligent, so it must be to do with the amount of help and support they get.

    The problem with admissions tests is that they can be extremely daunting to a student who hasn't practised much (I've tried an ELAT mock before and found it completely different to the usual exam style & something I'd never experienced before). The same goes with interviews. Oxbridge already has these measures, yet almost half of their undergraduates went to private schools. This isn't necessarily their fault, but it's clear that the playing field isn't level and schools need to do more.
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    (Original post by RK92)
    ive had this discussion before, but i dont think you can say that A*A*A from a state school is better than A*A*A* from a private school...
    I'm not sure if that discussion was with me... but in terms of subsequent degree performance, you most definitely can. On average, comprehansive pupils do better at uni if they have the same grades, with the out-performance approximately equivalent to one A-level grade.

    http://www.suttontrust.com/news/news...ls-outperform/

    Considering under-performing comps it may be equivalent to even more grades than that.
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    (Original post by la-dauphine)
    I'm not suggesting that universities should discriminate by making lower offers to state school students: I was more responding to your idea that the students with the best A level grades will perform the best on a university course.
    A-levels are the single best indicator of university performance, with quite a lot of predictive power. Taking education would appear to be a good idea though, as shown in the study i quoted above.

    (Original post by la-dauphine)
    It's not true that private school students are automatically more intelligent,
    This definitely IS true - aside from the impact that wealth has on factors outside of school, most private schools have strict entry requirements plus they get a lot of great pupils through scholarships...

    (Original post by la-dauphine)
    so it must be to do with the amount of help and support they get.
    ...although obviously this is a factor too.
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    (Original post by nexttime)
    A-levels are the single best indicator of university performance, with quite a lot of predictive power. Taking education would appear to be a good idea though, as shown in the study i quoted above.


    This definitely IS true - aside from the impact that wealth has on factors outside of school, most private schools have strict entry requirements plus they get a lot of great pupils through scholarships...
    A lot of private schools are pretty lenient about who they admit, providing the fees can be paid. There are private school students who are coming out with 3 As when they might have only got AAB at a state school. Clearly that's down to the fact that at many private schools you're 'pushed' more towards top unis. The study I quoted found that some former private school pupils struggled once they got to uni, because there was so much independent research.

    My point is that a lot of state school students have the potential, but lose out. That's not because they're naturally less intelligent - the university results prove that. Once the playing field is levelled, they often exceed their private school counterparts. So while A levels are advantageous to some, they're not to others. I personally think that the current languages curriculum is diabolical and that AS levels are too rushed. I'd rather go back to just having exams at the end of Year 13. Clearly the only 'fair' way of measuring potential is by levelling the playing field!
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    (Original post by la-dauphine)
    ...
    Well i agree with you that 'the playing field should be leveled', to an even greater extent (i think the evidence shows a lot of comp educated pupils should get lower offers). However, i am unclear on how you intend to do this!

    I think you also seem to be underestimating how much difference private school makes - they are something like 3.5x more likely to get AAA, for example, and if you compare to comps alone it is a lot higher.

    EDIT: oh and that study you quoted is a bit silly - it only shows state school pupils higher if you adjust for grade AND if you adjust for background. The sutton trust article is a lot more logical and shows the same thing. If you compare just state vs private private do a lot better, largely because they are skewed towards to top unis which give out more top grades (although you could argue that it is more difficult to get those top grades at top unis in the first place...)
 
 
 
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