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Why the HELL is David Cameron trying to "be down" with black people. watch

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    (Original post by wavey93)
    Yes, he is doing just that.
    How, exactly?
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    (Original post by wavey93)
    "A far greater proportion of black students with AAA apply to Oxford than white students with AAA."

    This is what you originally said....
    Yes. And that it correct. It is not the same as 'A far greater proportion of Oxford's applications are black students with AAA than white students with AAA', which is what i think you thought i said.

    EDIT: Regardless - the stats show what i was trying to say, that is what matters.
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    (Original post by StandardCarpet)
    I don't normally take part in online political brawls but, frankly, that's utter rubbish!

    All other factors equal - assuming each of those two hundred applicants had equally as impressive pre-university academic records - each would have the same opportunity to prove themselves worthy of a place at Oxford based on personal statement, interview performance and, for some subjects, entrance aptitude tests.

    Oxford University is not a racially discriminatory institution, no matter how much propagating slander to that effect tickles the egos of those who do.
    Offcourse Oxford university is not a racial institution and I am not saying it is. All I am saying is If you a from a middle/upper class family, you are more likely to get into the university. Clearly, there are lots more white candidates coming from this class system compared to the less well-off black candidates. Like I've been saying more white people will always gain admission into Oxford. That statement cannot be disputed and we all know this.

    It could also be because of the majority of black students gaining AAA applying compared to the white students who do not really apply. In this case, it would be fair if the majority of white students gain admission.
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    (Original post by ash121)
    I'm Black, and I don't have a problem with DC exposing Oxford.
    I think its disgusting only ONE black person was admitted into Oxford, considering I knew a few black people who applied and had the right credentials to get in.

    Guess its colour not credentials eh?
    As has been said its not 1 its actually 41 black students at Oxford, but that is still low percentage of the total 3000 students there. Oxford did raise the point that only 452 pupils from black backgrounds nationally had the grades necessary to make a successful application at Oxford - so you can't really blame the institution, its a wider problem with the school system, social mobility and ethnic minorities.
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    (Original post by *Hakz*)
    You, my friend, needs to STFU.

    :upyours:
    Probably a white person that negged me. Well done though
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    Why do you say 'be down'? Is it because black people only respond to slang and surely can't comprehend someone articulating themselves properly without resorting to street talk.
    Are black people and street talk linked in your eyes?
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    I really doubt that Oxford is being racist

    Its trying to compete in the world alongside harvard, cambridge, yale etc. as being the best university in the world and the only way it can do that is by admitting the best possible applicants

    I highly doubt they would therefore be purposefully racist and not let in a black person simply on the basis of race

    If people aren't good enough for Oxford its not down to their race, its down to something else

    I think Cameron is trying to get at a wider point regarding WHY exactly there are such few black people at oxford rather then pointing the finger at oxford (well I hope so otherwise hes a complete and utter prick)
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    (Original post by *Hakz*)
    Offcourse Oxford university is not a racial institution and I am not saying it is. All I am saying is If you a from a middle/upper class family, you are more likely to get into the university. Clearly, there are lots more white candidates coming from this class system compared to the less well-off black candidates. Like I've been saying more white people will always gain admission into Oxford. That statement cannot be disputed and we all know this.

    It could also be because of the majority of black students gaining AAA applying compared to the white students who do not really apply. In this case, it would be fair if the majority of white students gain admission.
    So what your thought experiment boils down to in the end is "who will get more people in: 100 people of whom 29% get AAA or 100 people of whom 9% get AAA?". The fact is that black people do not get the grades or other academic requirements that Oxford look for. This is probably down to a variety of reasons - socioeconomic class probably being the largest. As has been said by many leaders of universities recently in the whole fees debate, universities cannot be alone in being the instruments of social mobility. Universities will only be able to remain good universities if they take the best students. The instruments of social mobility need to be the schools, parents and other influences that prepare people from lower socioeconomic classes for application to universities. The role of the universities in this needs to be encouraging them to consider university and getting them to apply once they have been prepared to the point that they are able to do so.

    Edit: Oh, and I was the one who negged you. You seemed to be countering the simple truth that is behind Oxford's admission statistics with "that's not what I want to hear, go away".
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    Well I'm sure his policies are going to improve the situation.
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    (Original post by Calumcalum)
    How, exactly?
    By pretending he actually cares. We all knew this was happening for years, and even a few years back Oxford already explained the lack of black students in their uni. I strongly believe this was a stunt to try and get black people on the conservatives side. He saw this as an opportunity and grabbed it.
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    (Original post by rodcarter)
    Why do you say 'be down'? Is it because black people only respond to slang and surely can't comprehend someone articulating themselves properly without resorting to street talk.
    Are black people and street talk linked in your eyes?
    Do not try and insinuate I am racist. I am black. The "be down" in the title was simply humour as this is what I imagine David Cameron and his shadow cabinet say when talking about black people, I have always thought of them to have rarely met any. Mainly because of David Cameron's background. Black people actually don't say "be down" , this was a slang phrase used a VERY long time ago.
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    (Original post by nexttime)
    It would have been better to look at the proportion of black students that get AAA and so are at least could go to oxford if they got an offer - this is at about 1.5%. In addition, black students tend to apply for the most competitive subjects (28% applied to medicine, for instance). "Outreach' will not do much about this!
    Both figures are useful tbh--ideally I would say the aim (societally, rather than for Oxford) should be to increase the percentage of AAA rather than lower our expectations of the numbers who should be able to gain entry. So I use the figure that fits that social aim of mine. But of course in terms of short-term aims for Oxford 1.5% would be a reasonable target.

    Outreach may not help with that one factor, but it might well improve achievement at A Level and increase the proportion who 'qualified' as it were. Certainly some Sutton Trust research suggests outreach is very effective in increasing application and acceptance rates at top universities, with summer schools being perhaps the most effective (an area which, happily, Oxford has been rather leading the way in, but could perhaps be extended).
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    (Original post by wavey93)
    By pretending he actually cares. We all knew this was happening for years, and even a few years back Oxford already explained the lack of black students in their uni. I strongly believe this was a stunt to try and get black people on the conservatives side. He saw this as an opportunity and grabbed it.
    But even if he did care, it doesn't mean he'd be pretending to share in their experiences. You can care very much/be empathetic without being genuinely sympathetic.
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    (Original post by *Hakz*)
    Offcourse Oxford university is not a racial institution and I am not saying it is. All I am saying is If you a from a middle/upper class family, you are more likely to get into the university. Clearly, there are lots more white candidates coming from this class system compared to the less well-off black candidates. Like I've been saying more white people will always gain admission into Oxford. That statement cannot be disputed and we all know this.

    It could also be because of the majority of black students gaining AAA applying compared to the white students who do not really apply. In this case, it would be fair if the majority of white students gain admission.
    You're confusing two different debates here. One concerns the postulate that wealthier students are, in general, better coached to successful Oxford application than poorer students; the second concerns the postulate that Oxford is a racially discriminatory institution which makes admissions decisions based upon prospective students' race.

    The first debate you redress in the post I have quoted immediately above, and, loosely, I agree with the opinion you put forward as evidenced by admissions statistics.

    Your opinion on the second debate is what I am absolutely contending. Your original post carried the implication that, if two groups of one hundred students each applied to Oxford, the black group would be less successful than the white group because they are black. The reason for me assuming this particular implication was the sarcastic "Ofcourse we'll never find out".

    You are either, then, contradicting yourself in your later posts - you claim you know why black applicants and generally less successful than white applicants owing to financial background circumstances as per the first of the two debates I outlined above - or you are outright stating that Oxford University is a racist institution.

    If you admit to contradicting yourself - you now "[have] found out" why the admissions statistics are the way they are - we have no further argument. If you don't admit to contradicting yourself, I categorically state that you are wrong in saying that Oxford is racially discriminatory.

    Sorry for the robotic phrasing of that post; this topic is important to me, and as such I have tried to be as thorough as I can.
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    (Original post by Calumcalum)
    But even if he did care, it doesn't mean he'd be pretending to share in their experiences. You can care very much/be empathetic without being genuinely sympathetic.
    but i am saying his empathy is not genuine
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    (Original post by Rob da Mop)
    So what your thought experiment boils down to in the end is "who will get more people in: 100 people of whom 29% get AAA or 100 people of whom 9% get AAA?". The fact is that black people do not get the grades or other academic requirements that Oxford look for. This is probably down to a variety of reasons - socioeconomic class probably being the largest. As has been said by many leaders of universities recently in the whole fees debate, universities cannot be alone in being the instruments of social mobility. Universities will only be able to remain good universities if they take the best students. The instruments of social mobility need to be the schools, parents and other influences that prepare people from lower socioeconomic classes for application to universities. The role of the universities in this needs to be encouraging them to consider university and getting them to apply once they have been prepared to the point that they are able to do so.

    Edit: Oh, and I was the one who negged you. You seemed to be countering the simple truth that is behind Oxford's admission statistics with "that's not what I want to hear, go away".
    Well done for the neg. I am not in any way criticising Oxford on how their admission process works. My whole point is and will always be that white middle/upper class students are more likely to gain admission than black students. Cultural capital plays an important role.

    It could also be due to the fact that maybe most of the black candidates that apply to Oxford did not do the 'so called' traditional subjects at A'level.

    :smug:
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    white people are underrepresented at oxford and asians are overrepresented.

    official oxford ethnic admission breakdown here:



    ox.ac.uk/about_the_university/facts_and_figures/undergraduate_admissions_statist ics/ethnic_origin.html
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    (Original post by *Hakz*)
    Well done for the neg. I am not in any way criticising Oxford on how their admission process works. My whole point is and will always be that white middle/upper class students are more likely to gain admission than black students. Cultural capital plays an important role.

    It could also be due to the fact that maybe most of the black candidates that apply to Oxford did not do the 'so called' traditional subjects at A'level.

    :smug:
    I'm very confused. Your point has seemed throughout this thread to be that black people should be getting in and that black people shouldn't bother applying even if they have got the grades, when in actual fact the practice is more "people without 3 As need not apply".
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    (Original post by wavey93)
    but i am saying his empathy is not genuine
    That may be true, but neither his fake nor his genuine empathy amount to an attempt to "be down" with black people imo.
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    (Original post by Calumcalum)
    That may be true, but neither his fake nor his genuine empathy amount to an attempt to "be down" with black people imo.
    So what was it in your opinion?
 
 
 
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