Turn on thread page Beta

Why is it taboo to consider race and intellect correlate in the general population? watch

    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    4
    ReputationRep:
    We can accept that physically black people are superior in some respects. Kenyans are genetically gifted with more endurance muscle fibre whilst Jamaicans are genetically gifted with more high twitch muscle fibre for sprinting.

    Scandinavians are gifted with powerlifting genes etc etc.

    My point is:

    Why is it so hard to accept that some races (in general) are smarter than others? One day, when we begin to understand the brain, you're going to have to face the truth, so why hide from it?
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    You say this is if you are in possession of some sort of knowledge that we are not.

    I would say it is because there is no definitive research into the matter. Much of it relies on either IQ or school grades. IQ is a highly questionable way of measuring overall intelligence as well and can also be manipulated by environmental factors. This and school grades are also reliant on the school education. Now the first world is comprised mainly of white majority countries because of their dominance on the world throughout the last 500 or so years. The poorer parts of the developed world are also more likely to be comprised of people of an ethnic background. Now I would say that the exposure to poverty and therefore a lower quality of education has more of a say on the average intelligence of each member of a race then another, but of course you may reject all this and prefer go for the immediate view in order to maybe fit some sort of racial views that you may or may not have.

    Awaiting the shower of negs from those who want to ignore contrary evidence and criticisms and say that "research shows" without giving an example of a study that does not rely on school grades nor IQ for the reasons above that I have given.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    4
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by adam_zed)
    You say this is if you are in possession of some sort of knowledge that we are not.

    I would say it is because there is no definitive research into the matter. Much of it relies on either IQ or school grades. IQ is a highly questionable way of measuring overall intelligence as well and can also be manipulated by environmental factors. This and school grades are also reliant on the school education. Now the first world is comprised mainly of white majority countries because of their dominance on the world throughout the last 500 or so years. The poorer parts of the developed world are also more likely to be comprised of people of an ethnic background. Now I would say that the exposure to poverty and therefore a lower quality of education has more of a say on the average intelligence of each member of a race then another, but of course you may reject all this and prefer go for the immediate view in order to maybe fit some sort of racial views that you may or may not have.

    Awaiting the shower of negs from those who want to ignore contrary evidence and criticisms and say that "research shows" without giving an example of a study that does not rely on school grades nor IQ for the reasons above that I have given.

    http://www.charlesdarwinresearch.org...%20review).pdf


    For the most part yes, environment is the most prominent factor. However, everything about any creature's phenotype is influenced by genetics and environment. Why is intellect exclusively environment? I'm not saying at all that asians are the dominant race for intelligence or black people are the dumbest. What I am saying is why are people not prepared to even consider it as a possibility?

    Humans have more brain cells than dogs. Some humans have more brain cells than others. Why is is impossible for some humans to have been born with more brain cells than others?
    Offline

    10
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by DavidCraig)
    We can accept that physically black people are superior in some respects. Kenyans are genetically gifted with more endurance muscle fibre whilst Jamaicans are genetically gifted with more high twitch muscle fibre for sprinting.

    Scandinavians are gifted with powerlifting genes etc etc.

    My point is:

    Why is it so hard to accept that some races (in general) are smarter than others? One day, when we begin to understand the brain, you're going to have to face the truth, so why hide from it?
    By intelligence do you just mean IQ?
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by DavidCraig)
    http://www.charlesdarwinresearch.org...%20review).pdf


    For the most part yes, environment is the most prominent factor. However, everything about any creature's phenotype is influenced by genetics and environment. Why is intellect exclusively environment? I'm not saying at all that asians are the dominant race for intelligence or black people are the dumbest. What I am saying is why are people not prepared to even consider it as a possibility?

    Humans have more brain cells than dogs. Some humans have more brain cells than others. Why is is impossible for some humans to have been born with more brain cells than others?
    Lmao, you're quoting a paper from the 80's which bases a large proportion of it's argument on flawed cranial capacity measures and dodgy assumptions that encephalization = intelligence? (Not to mention nonsense 'IQ measures' like sexual restraint, genitalia size, age to walk and age to puberty).

    If you're going to troll, troll harder with some better papers.
    • Political Ambassador
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    Political Ambassador
    Well I am quite interested in this. Are there any good studies on the subject?
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by DavidCraig)
    http://www.charlesdarwinresearch.org...%20review).pdf


    For the most part yes, environment is the most prominent factor. However, everything about any creature's phenotype is influenced by genetics and environment. Why is intellect exclusively environment? I'm not saying at all that asians are the dominant race for intelligence or black people are the dumbest. What I am saying is why are people not prepared to even consider it as a possibility?

    Humans have more brain cells than dogs. Some humans have more brain cells than others. Why is is impossible for some humans to have been born with more brain cells than others?
    Looks interesting man, cheers. I can read it now because Im going out but ill read it when I get back.

    Considering I dont know that much about genetics etc, I am willing to keep an open mind about it. However my general belief is that characteristics such as intelligence are influenced much more through the environment ie through the level of education, motivation and stimulation they receive. It would be very narrow minded of me to refuse to believe that genetics have any say in intelligence, but as I say I think that any racial difference would be very minimal and much more influenced by the environment. The difference between the brain capacity of a human and a dog is remarkably more varied then the difference between the brain capacity of two humans. I also believe that any research that may conclusively find a small difference between ethnic groups will be grossly exaggerated by groups whose interests it is to emphasize the dividing lines between the population. Also, considering how incredibly diverse the worlds population is, I doubt that the intelligence of man can be divided between merely 3 categories considering how many thousands of ethnic groups exist in the world.

    I do hope that it wasnt you who negged me as your reply was conducted in a sensible manner and made me realise that I as perhaps being a bit stubborn with my initial reply. If it was, then that is incredibly petty of you. If not then thanks for the interesting study/
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by GodspeedGehenna)
    Lmao, you're quoting a paper from the 80's which bases a large proportion of it's argument on flawed cranial capacity measures and dodgy assumptions that encephalization = intelligence? (Not to mention nonsense 'IQ measures' like sexual restraint, genitalia size, age to walk and age to puberty).

    If you're going to troll, troll harder with some better papers.
    I only read the first sentence with a view to rereading it when I had more time, but it did strike me as odd some of the things the study seemed to think suggested intelligence.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    4
    ReputationRep:
    Just doing some biology revision and my textbook actually states that genetics affect intelligence.

    However, intelligence is continous (quantitative) data that is effected by polygenes- many genes have a cumulative effect. It does say environment is the most important factor though, akin to height. People are genetically predetermined to reach certain heights. However, lack of food (read education) is more important.
    Offline

    17
    ReputationRep:
    Where did you that get crap about black people being "physically superior"?
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    4
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by patrickedore)
    Where did you that get crap about black people being "physically superior"?
    Go watch the Olympics.
    Take a look at the NFL.
    Take a look at basketball etc....


    Ok that term was a bit general. White people are better at swimming. Nordic people are the best powerlifters.

    There have been studies showing black people have a greater proportion of fast-twitch muscle fibres (run faster) and a lower centre of gravity. Not that anyone with a shred of common sense would need it confirmed. (this coming from an Asian)
    Offline

    12
    ReputationRep:
    Mainly because there is no basis to believe there is as far as I'm aware. Also correlating race and intelligence is a very dangerous thing to do, because in a country where intelligence is valued far higher economically than physical strength, it could lead to generalisations which in turn would lead to people being denied a job due to their race. When people see a generalisation they tend to forget that in reality, it's still entirely down to the individual.
    Offline

    17
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by DavidCraig)
    Go watch the Olympics.
    Take a look at the NFL.
    Take a look at basketball etc....


    Ok that term was a bit general. White people are better at swimming. Nordic people are the best powerlifters.

    There have been studies showing black people have a greater proportion of fast-twitch muscle fibres (run faster) and a lower centre of gravity. Not that anyone with a shred of common sense would need it confirmed. (this coming from an Asian)
    Olympic athletes/NFL/basketball players are good at their sport due to their training and diet not because of their race.

    I am black myself and and can confirm to you that this is not true. Many people of my own race are average compared to any other race in terms of athleticism
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by DavidCraig)
    http://www.charlesdarwinresearch.org...%20review).pdf


    For the most part yes, environment is the most prominent factor. However, everything about any creature's phenotype is influenced by genetics and environment. Why is intellect exclusively environment? I'm not saying at all that asians are the dominant race for intelligence or black people are the dumbest. What I am saying is why are people not prepared to even consider it as a possibility?

    Humans have more brain cells than dogs. Some humans have more brain cells than others. Why is is impossible for some humans to have been born with more brain cells than others?
    I think you may be confused. It's perfectly reasonable, obvious in fact, that some people are more intelligent "genetically" than other people. Comparing the bottom of the IQ pool to the very top, there is such a difference that a part of this can only be accounted for by innate factors.

    However you're talking about entire races, and there are several problems with this.

    I think there may be some evidence that white people reason slightly differently to black people. The IQ test is more relevant to this type of reasoning. Similarly, Aboriginals are far better at spatial tasks than other people. They would outperform other races on this type of task most of the time.

    So what is the problem with this?

    The majority of IQ tests are completed to a higher standard by middle-class white people. Why is this? Because IQ tests were created by middle-class white people, for middle-class white people.

    Along with the problems I mentioned above, the majority of these people have had the facilities to be better prepared for IQ tests - more books, better schooling (aimed at a white-style of learning), and of course not forgetting a large number of students have had some sort of "IQ test training", where they are taught how to answer IQ style questions.

    What is intelligence anyway? Is it scores on an IQ test? I don't think so. Aboriginals would not get to demonstrate the vast amount of spatial skills on this type of test, so a large part of their "intelligence" is not tested. Does that mean they are less intelligent?

    Intelligence is somewhat relative. I think a black person is better placed to be "intelligent" in the type of culture that they prefer (whatever that may be).


    But after all that, there might be a difference across the races. However this isn't about who is better, it's about who is better at what. This has even been suggested before, with some schools in America (I don't recall the names) being aimed at black children's style of learning. And surprise surprise, these children perform to a much higher standard there.



    To your comparison - Are black people always better at sport? Yes, they may be excellent sprinters, but they are not better swimmers or gymnasts for example. Do they win out right at being better sportsmen overall? Perhaps not, because as a whole they might even out at a similar level to the other races, winning at athletics and losing in other areas of sport.

    The same can be said for intelligence.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    What would conclusive evidence to support what you are saying provide us? It is a taboo because the results are worthless.
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    Research shows that all human brains are precisely identical at birth, and all cognitive variation seen in adulthood is the result of different upbringings.

    Genetic variation affects every part of the body except the brain, and if it was up to me it would be illegal to claim otherwise.
    Offline

    12
    ReputationRep:
    It's taboo because we have no real evidence. That normally wouldn't be enough to not posit a theory, but that theory has been posited before, and it didn't exactly end well. Without any evidence to the contrary we should assume that race and intelligence don't correlate. Unfortunately, racists tend to be stupid, so won't accept that and will instead go the other way and people will go with them, because other people are stupid.

    In essence, responsible scientist don't tell evil people they might be right, because they won't hear the might.
    Offline

    12
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by cttp_ngaf)
    Research shows that all human brains are precisely identical at birth, and all cognitive variation seen in adulthood is the result of different upbringings.

    Genetic variation affects every part of the body except the brain, and if it was up to me it would be illegal to claim otherwise.
    Research might show that all brains are structurally identical on a macroscopic scale, but equating that to all difference in people's minds in adult life being environmental is a pretty big leap. You're making the assumption that the macroscopic structure of a brain controls everything to do with it.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    It is somewhat of a taboo, but it's also rather unscientific. There is no significant evidence that intelligence is primarily biological (in the case of healthy, non-disabled adults) and much evidence of environmental effects.
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by JoMo1)
    Research might show that all brains are structurally identical on a macroscopic scale, but equating that to all difference in people's minds in adult life being environmental is a pretty big leap. You're making the assumption that the macroscopic structure of a brain controls everything to do with it.
    So you're saying that science is wrong? Then why are you using a computer, that's science right there. But you don't think it exists? POW!

    There are only two possible conclusions:

    1) You are racist

    or

    B) You're a religious nutjob.
 
 
 
Poll
Which accompaniment is best?
Useful resources

The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

Write a reply...
Reply
Hide
Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.