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Why is there an obituary for Nick Clegg already? watch

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    I just wish to know one thing, and I welcome various views (for and against him) here.

    Quite simply, why is he getting so much hatred at the moment? It seems to revolve sorely around the tuition fee policy that he is getting so much flak. I was in a politics seminar a few weeks ago, and the only thing which anybody could draw upon for his 'betrayal' (not my words, I don't have a thing against him) was tuition fees.

    Surely it cannot be right to predict the apocalypse for a politician based on one policy? If that is so, then that is one sign that our politics is broken. I put this question to you: if by 2015 the country is in a very good position with strong growth and high employment, then will Clegg be 'killed'/'raped'/annihilated'/'destroyed' on the day of the 2015 General Election based on one policy?

    If that is so, then surely Labour should have been decimated on 6th of May 2010 for a shedload of crap that they did over 13 years?

    Feel free to 'favourite' this or whatever, but please do bear in mind that the short-term means absolutely nothing. Look at Gordon Brown, at one moment he was the most hated man in the United Kingdom (compare him to Clegg, and try not to die from a rise in blood pressure), but then he would bribe the electorate for a boost in popularity. This lasted...several weeks but then he would be unpopular.

    So what I am saying is this - a man can be unpopular one week/month/year, but then he can turn the corner by providing various things that undermine his unpopularity for one specific area. So if he achieves everything he promises, and the electorate benefit, then surely the tuition fee aspect won't even be a point of debate?

    I can't imagine Labour being able to win in 2015 (or the Liberal Democrats 'decimated') if the Coalition achieves what it promises. Ed Miliband can go "Oh my god! A 200%+ rise in tuition fees! Cuts that we ***wouldn't*** deliver!", but then Clegg and Cameron can, in unison, say "We have economic growth, we have achieved reforms, all in five years."


    I may have waffled on, and sorry for that. But the point (I think) is this : tuition fees can't surely be a reason for a politician to be destroyed if everything else goes well by 2015? The only group that will see any 'decimation' in 2015 will be Labour, especially if everything they said was proven wrong. They were not a form of Cassandra, they were disingenuous, and that they lied all along.
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    Misleading title is misleading.
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    Tuition Fees is a sticking point because of how often he promoted the abandonment of tuition fees and it was a key cornerstone of his 2010 Election Campaign (imo). Other than that he's the scapegoat for a lot of unpopular coalition policies.
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    (Original post by Fusilero)
    Tuition Fees is a sticking point because of how often he promoted the abandonment of tuition fees and it was a key cornerstone of his 2010 Election Campaign (imo). Other than that he's the scapegoat for a lot of unpopular coalition policies.
    This, basically. When you base a great portion of your campaign around voting against voting for tuition fees, and the vote for them, you're kind of asking to be ridiculed.

    That said, a lot of the hatred he receives is rather irrational.
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    He's a scapegoat for what the Conservatives are doing. (Rightly or wrongly it's beside the point)

    He knew that when he made the decision to go into a coalition with them.

    But tuition fees really was a key LibDem policy (and probably main vote winner aside of protest votes). Those pledge photos probably didn't help things either.

    If our economy/country is in a fantastic position come 2015 the election results will show that, but we probably won't be. The last election really was the election to lose.

    Nick Clegg as a politician is alive and well, Nick Clegg as a LibDem politician and leader is dying, imo.
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    (Original post by Stanley Baldwin)
    Surely it cannot be right to predict the apocalypse for a politician based on one policy?
    The difference between the Lib Dems and other parties is that the Lib Dems get a ****load of student votes off the back of policies that work in their favour, and they're just pussied out on what the largest section of their voters hold as their most important policy. The Lib Dems are a two trick party, and they're sacrificed one of their tricks to get a watered down version of another one.

    Whether that's fair on the Lib Dems or not is another question, as is whether students at the time of the next general election even remember this properly, given some of them are like 14 or 15 now and paying little or no attention to politics.
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    (Original post by Fusilero)
    Tuition Fees is a sticking point because of how often he promoted the abandonment of tuition fees and it was a key cornerstone of his 2010 Election Campaign (imo). Other than that he's the scapegoat for a lot of unpopular coalition policies.
    You see, you prove my point. Is it going to be a sticking point come 2015 if (in fantasy land) our economy has grown by 2000% (NOT possible in a five year term! Not even in a Communist regime)?

    If so, our politics is just pathetic.

    Look at Scotland, for example, Glasgow-land (Labour's HQ) had a big transport project cut a few years back. Does this mean the death of the SNP government? No, it isn't. Why? Because the SNP has delivered quite a lot of what they promised. Surely if they can make such a wonderful recovery from 2009, then surely Clegg can do so in a four year period?
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    (Original post by Stanley Baldwin)
    Quite simply, why is he getting so much hatred at the moment? It seems to revolve sorely around the tuition fee policy that he is getting so much flak.
    Quite simply because the Lib Dems were seen as the 'good guys' in the two party system we have now. They have lied and people don't like liars. He dug a hole for himself. He could have comeout and said, at the begining, he would have to go against his pledge.

    (Original post by Stanley Baldwin)
    Surely it cannot be right to predict the apocalypse for a politician based on one policy? If that is so, then that is one sign that our politics is broken.
    It's been broken for a long time...

    (Original post by Stanley Baldwin)
    I put this question to you: if by 2015 the country is in a very good position with strong growth and high employment, then will Clegg be 'killed'/'raped'/annihilated'/'destroyed' on the day of the 2015 General Election based on one policy?
    In 2015, the students will be voting. They won't forget. One policy, one action can make or break careers.

    (Original post by Stanley Baldwin)
    If that is so, then surely Labour should have been decimated on 6th of May 2010 for a shedload of crap that they did over 13 years?
    First Past the Post makes a two party system. Labour voting may of been strategic... And there were a good load of good things labour did for this country.
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    He's getting a lot of hammering the last couple of days cos a lot of Sheffield students live in his constituency, and Sheffield's just announced it wants to charge 9000.

    Plus he appears to be a naive poshboy being totally ridden by cameron - as per that unguarded suckup remark that got recorded on a open mic.
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    Clegg will be long gone by 2015.
    In fact he may not survive the AV debacle.
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    He's getting a lot of hammering the last couple of days cos a lot of Sheffield students live in his constituency, and Sheffield's just announced it wants to charge 9000.

    Plus he appears to be a naive poshboy being totally ridden by cameron - as per that unguarded suckup remark that got recorded on a open mic.
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    (Original post by Fusilero)
    Tuition Fees is a sticking point because of how often he promoted the abandonment of tuition fees and it was a key cornerstone of his 2010 Election Campaign (imo). Other than that he's the scapegoat for a lot of unpopular coalition policies.
    The only people who see it this way are students, the lib dems made quite clear what their 4 main policies were, and tuition fees were not one of them. No-one here cares/acknowledges that raising the personal allowance and far more flexible care for the elderly were bigger priorities to them. It's just because most people here aren't old and aren't earning yet that they don't care about that.

    For me personally, I have no idea what the big fuss is about. I don't see Nick Clegg as a traitor. I am of the belief you need compromise in a coalition and given tuition fees were going to go up whatever happened (unless lib dems got a majority) then I don't understand why everyone's moaning. Labour and the Tories have made commitments many times and broken them in far less understandable circumstances...
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    Because people see him as having sold out. You can go all you like about how a coalition is about compromise, which is true enough, but it does appear to many people (even if this is not the case) that he's completely overlooked his moral values in order to get a cabinet post, and funnily enough, people don't like that.
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    (Original post by Meteorshower)
    The only people who see it this way are students, the lib dems made quite clear what their 4 main policies were, and tuition fees were not one of them. No-one here cares/acknowledges that raising the personal allowance and far more flexible care for the elderly were bigger priorities to them. It's just because most people here aren't old and aren't earning yet that they don't care about that.

    For me personally, I have no idea what the big fuss is about. I don't see Nick Clegg as a traitor. I am of the belief you need compromise in a coalition and given tuition fees were going to go up whatever happened (unless lib dems got a majority) then I don't understand why everyone's moaning. Labour and the Tories have made commitments many times and broken them in far less understandable circumstances...
    I think one of the LibDem MPs said it best - they were seen as a party of protest, fluffy bunnies and happy thoughts in the past, now that they're in government and being politicians they're disliked for having to act like politicians.

    (Original post by Stanley Baldwin)
    You see, you prove my point. Is it going to be a sticking point come 2015 if (in fantasy land) our economy has grown by 2000% (NOT possible in a five year term! Not even in a Communist regime)?

    If so, our politics is just pathetic.

    Look at Scotland, for example, Glasgow-land (Labour's HQ) had a big transport project cut a few years back. Does this mean the death of the SNP government? No, it isn't. Why? Because the SNP has delivered quite a lot of what they promised. Surely if they can make such a wonderful recovery from 2009, then surely Clegg can do so in a four year period?
    Right on. I'm sure it'll be a non issue, mostly, in 2015 but most people, you and I included, can't really predict that far forward. It might rear it's ugly head up again or be exploited by Labour (and the Conservatives! Remember they're in a Coalition Government, not merging) by 2015 though. Although the fact that it's a non-issue in 2015 would also demonstrate how long-term memory is deficient in the voting population.
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    (Original post by SaysWho?)
    Quite simply because the Lib Dems were seen as the 'good guys' in the two party system we have now. They have lied and people don't like liars. He dug a hole for himself. He could have comeout and said, at the begining, he would have to go against his pledge.


    It's been broken for a long time...


    In 2015, the students will be voting. They won't forget. One policy, one action can make or break careers.


    First Past the Post makes a two party system. Labour voting may of been strategic... And there were a good load of good things labour did for this country.
    So parties should base their manifestos based on the premise they might be in a coalition? *******s to that I say... He didn't lie, people just aren't prepared to accept that maybe sometimes you don't get *everything* your way in government, and especially with far fewer mps, the best thing is to get the policies you can through. Alternative? Tories without the lib dems... I'm sure you're tution fees would be far better off in that circumstance!

    Also, if you think tuition fees means nick clegg deserves to be destroyed, why the hell wasn't the same fuss made when labour *introduced* tuition fees, despite having all the power they wanted and a gigantic majority! What's that, they said they wouldn't before hand? Oh, well it's ok if it's labour?
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    (Original post by Stanley Baldwin)
    I just wish to know one thing, and I welcome various views (for and against him) here.

    Quite simply, why is he getting so much hatred at the moment? It seems to revolve sorely around the tuition fee policy that he is getting so much flak. I was in a politics seminar a few weeks ago, and the only thing which anybody could draw upon for his 'betrayal' (not my words, I don't have a thing against him) was tuition fees.

    Surely it cannot be right to predict the apocalypse for a politician based on one policy?
    Clegg is likely to face the apocalypse but there is a bit more to it than one policy. All parties going into coalition face some compromise, Lib Dem voters are more sympathetic to this than anyone because they want things like PR and coalition/compromise government. Voters in general understand this, there were a lot of Tory voters who supported Osborne's pre-election plans for cutting inheritance tax. In fact on the last of the TV debates there was heated argument between Brown and Cameron about inheritance tax and Cameron was vigorously defending this policy. They dropped that in the coalition agreement, I'm sure many Tory voters were a bit disappointed but they haven't turned the heat on their party as a 'betrayal' over this.

    The problem for Clegg with tuition fees is because of the demographics of the party's electoral support, they deliberately target the student vote and student voters form a fair chunk of the Lib Dem support. The long standing Lib Dem voters who have been supporting the party since the days of the SDP-Liberal Alliance in the 1980s and so on will probably be understanding over the fees issue, but the youth vote, who supported the Lib Dems basically because they were opposed to the Iraq war, a bit to the left of New Labour, and opposed to tuition fees, is now angry because it had no long standing ties to the party. The Lib Dems are going to lose that vote now (possibly some to Labour, most to Greens) and that will be electorally disastrous to the Lib Dems.

    The other issue is that there are two types of Lib Dem, which reflects to an extent the party's origins in the late 1980s after merging the Alliance parties. The old style 'Liberal' party which has been around for centuries was mainly full of economic liberals (pro free market) who were also socially liberal, ie people who would be naturally close to the Conservatives on economic matters but wouldn't fit in the Tory party because they have liberal views on things like immigration, law and order, rights for minority groups, where the Tories are more 'socially conservative'. The other type of Lib Dem is basically from the centre-left on economic matters (the SDP party which was in the Alliance, was a breakaway group from the Labour party when the Labour party shifted to the left in the early 1980s), these are generally pro welfare spending, higher taxes, green taxes, but they share traditional liberal views on social issues.

    Within the parliamentary party you get guys like Clegg, Danny Alexander, Chris Huhne, David Laws, who are more the old style liberal, and then Charles Kennedy, Vince Cable, Simon Hughes etc who are more the centre-left progressive type. When it comes to making a coalition, the old style liberals are more natural at working with the Conservatives, whereas the centre-left progressives are more natural partners for Labour.

    The problem for Clegg here is that within the Lib Dem vote out in the country, and party membership, the majority are probably centre-left progressives who feel closer to Labour than the Conservatives. So as well as never seeing Clegg as 'one of them' in the way that Charles Kennedy was, they will be uncomfortable with the coalition with the Conservatives anyway.

    What will probably happen at the next election is the Lib Dems lose a lot of seats, if the coalition turns out to be successful then the Conservatives will win an overall majority. If the coalition turns out to be a failure then Labour will probably come back. Either way I expect the Lib Dems to make losses, and Clegg (who will potentially also lose his Sheffield Hallam seat) will resign.
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    If every politician was hated with the same fervour as nick clegg is now for making one lie, then NOBODY would vote for any candidates.

    All politicians will lie at some point - it would seem that nick clegg's lie has touched a nerve with a section of the population who aren't afraid to throw what little political weight they have around to try and get their way.
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    Just in case.:sadnod:
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    Frankly, whether the country is in a better economic state in 2015 or not is irrelevant as to whether the Lib Dems will be pulverised at the polls; the tuition fees betrayal will cost them hundreds of thousands, possibly millions of votes. Being seen to prop up a Tory government will definitely cost them the vote from the left of the party.
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    (Original post by Fusilero)
    I think one of the LibDem MPs said it best - they were seen as a party of protest, fluffy bunnies and happy thoughts in the past, now that they're in government and being politicians they're disliked for having to act like politicians.

    That's also terribly unfair. Lib dems have plenty of experience on local councils, and in government in Scotland. They also had the most detailed manifesto at the last election, including full costings. The only reason people perceive them as overly idealistic without substance is because the media seemed to always paint it that way despite the facts. People should continue to judge them on their actual policies and what they've done in government (a considerable amount of which never makes the news) rather than who everyone tells him to hate.

    If everyone really cares that much about tuition fees, why are the lib dems the only party feeling the hurt? Why not blame labour for commissioning the browne report in the first place, or the tories for implementing the policy? Why is the party that has still done the most for students getting specifically single out?

    Makes no sense to me
 
 
 
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