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What is the difference between 'free speech' and 'racial hatred'? watch

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  • View Poll Results: What is the difference between 'free speech' and 'racial hatred'?
    We should be able to say what we want, when we want.
    33
    41.25%
    There is a line. Some things should only be disscused in private not public.
    35
    43.75%
    Nobody gets an opinion.
    5
    6.25%
    I don't care.
    7
    8.75%

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    I would not limit freedom of speech for moral or political reasons at all.

    Any attempt to do so is one step on the path to authoritarianism and anybody who supports it is, frankly, illiberal and intellectually dishonest. You support the right of yourself to say what is on your mind but do not support the right of others to profess opinions you find to be undesirable. Pathetic.

    It is absurd to outlaw opinion, any reasonable person understands this.
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    (Original post by pooo)
    Personally, I've been in a good few fights with white people over racial insults they have thrown at my asian friends. And what really scared me was that my coloured (am I allowed to say that?) friends seem to accept it/think it was acceptable.

    WTF?!

    No one has the right to fight or insult you because of your skin colour. These experiences have made me really annoyed and wearied by racists, wondering how they could harbour auch hatred and instigate fights over such things. It made me question my stance on free speech. I think yes, everyone should think as they will - hate whatever race they want. But if education and society changed it's approach and aimed to demolish racial conflicts then there would be no little issue of racism.

    Maybe I am wrong for thinking this - but the world is changing. The whites do not 'rule' and nor should we really claim 'britaib to be about british' - we are world citizens before we are country citizens, we are human before we are British and we should put that common thread before race. I firmly believe in british values and cultures, but that doesn't mean victimising those who do not follow them. We have our own culture, and we ought to accept that others have theirs. Britain should be about freedom. Not about forcing everyone to adhere to a quintesential britiah stereotype.

    I don't think i'm answering the question very well. I think freedom of speech is most important, I have just expressed my opinion and it may be offensive or wrong in someone elses eyes. Just like if I read someone writing '**** of all blacks and take your moslamic ray guns back to israel with you' i'd find that offensive but I still wouldn't argue with the fact he had expressed his feelings, merely that I don't agree with them.

    so yeah, freedom of speech over other stuff. Though I don't agree with burning anything. It's ****ed up and backward.
    You make some excellent points and why someone would want to neg you is beyond me. If I could add a couple of things:

    Some things that people say are clearly racial hatred but what originally conceived the hatred does have a bearing on matters. Centuries old animosity in the former Yugoslavia flared up with shocking obscene violence on all sides. Serbs, Bosnians, Muslims etc all have families and want the best for them but will now express pure hatred for years to come.

    Anti-semitism, like any racism, has no justification or foundation so I object to being accused of it when criticising the appalling crimes of israel against the Palestinians. Also, playing the holocaust card, which even many jews now see as an abuse of this tragedy, still goes on in debates on TSR. Having millions of your people exterminated is never a get out of jail free card to subjugate another people. Using it as such is an insult to memory of the people who died in the holocaust. Norman Finklestein bravely says this and jews the world over hate him for it!
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    Political Ambassador
    Racist insults is not freedom of speech.

    Burning the Quran Torah bibile poppies are all acts of freedom of speech.
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    Racial hatred is sometimes a from of free speech.
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    (Original post by Fusilero)
    If I declare I hate Juice in the middle of a crowded square then Juice Lovers are going to get offended. Some Juice Lovers might think that I did it deliberately to offend them but I merely hate Juice and all it stands for. Should I be prevented for declaring my hatred of Juice? In fact, if I hate Juice, surely I would want to offend Juice Lovers and that's why I went to the crowded square to declare my hatred for Juice? Should the government intervene to prevent my hatred of Juice from offending Juice Lovers? Slap me with a restraining order against Juice Lovers?
    Careful

    Hitler hated Juice too...
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    (Original post by Psyk)
    I think maybe there's a difference between stating your opinion, which some people may find offensive, and saying something with the intention of offending people. Often you know some people will be offended by your views, and if that wasn't allowed then we simply wouldn't be able to say anything at all. But that's not quite the same as saying something because it will offend people.
    (Original post by Nick Longjohnson)
    Political correctness.
    (Original post by Steevee)
    I think there's an easy difference to tell to be honest.

    There is a reasonable line between hateful insult and legitimate criticsm. Personally I would see no such laws over speech inciting hatred, I would advocate true free speech, except in the cases of libel and defemation.
    (Original post by moonkatt)
    Sometimes its blatantly obvious though. A BNP politician burning a Koran, some protesters openly burning poppies on armistice day, a pastor publicising the burn a Koran day, all of these were done in such a manner publicly to cause offence. If people kick off then some of the blame should be apportioned to the people who cause the offence, as that is why they committed these acts, to provoke.
    (Original post by Fusilero)
    On the other hand... how can you tell the difference between people doing it deliberately to offend people and people who simply hold the views? And why should the government prevent the the offensive people from offending people?
    (Original post by noobynoo)
    the "hate" part.
    Anytime we allow our judges and politicians to have authority over the free expression of even the most offensive our society has to offer, we are trusting the most vital element of our liberty to the subjective judgement of the very people and institutions this forum so commonly considers to be incompetent, untrustworthy, and immoral.
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    It disgusts me that in a liberal, democratic, secular country people would even consider trying to ban certain types of speech.

    Pathetic.
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    (Original post by SaysWho?)
    There are alot of these 'burn holy books, burn poppies' debates and, to be frank I wanted to know, out of interest, what people think the difference between the two are.

    'freedom of speech' and 'inciting racial hatred/freedom of expression' seem to get mixed into the other. I just want to highlight: "In practice, the right to freedom of speech is not absolute in any country and the right is commonly subject to limitations, such as on "hate speech".

    Why do people do things in retaliation to others and why is it people blame the minority over the majority. A recent example of this was the Pastor Terry Jones story which resulted in the death of UN members by extremists. The two extremes battle amongst eachother and the between are caught in the crossfire.

    Is this therefore similar to say the BNP, a legal political party or even Nazism?

    The point of this is to see what people think is and isn't okay regarding freedom of speech and expression. Please can we not get too heated.

    (Sorry about re-posting. The first doesn't seem to cooperate with my laptop...)
    I noticed you refer to only White politcal parties and 'racist' figures.
    Also islam isn't a race either.(your reference to pastor blah blah)

    ALSO... Islam hates the Jewish Race as well, and while we are using 'racial hatred' in such a freely manner, Islam hates all others who are not Muslim.
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    Racist insults is not freedom of speech.

    Burning the Quran Torah bibile poppies are all acts of freedom of speech.
    Burning poppies is not freedom of speech, it is a technically a criminal act, just as desecrating graves are. its also highly disrespectful to the people who died in WW2 to keep fascism from being dominant in the world - lets not forget poppies are for the Muslim soldiers who died as well but Islamic extremists who are allowed to live here don't care for a second about people in the country they are guests in.

    As for buring the Quran , torah and bible, that is religous persecution. Thus it is not an act of freedom of speech.

    This applies to all of the above things, if you hate something you present a good arguement against it not desecrate something that is holy or special to another set of people.
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    (Original post by pooo)

    Maybe I am wrong for thinking this - but the world is changing. The whites do not 'rule' and nor should we really claim 'britaib to be about british' - we are world citizens before we are country citizens, we are human before we are British and we should put that common thread before race. I firmly believe in british values and cultures, but that doesn't mean victimising those who do not follow them. We have our own culture, and we ought to accept that others have theirs. Britain should be about freedom. Not about forcing everyone to adhere to a quintesential britiah stereotype. .
    It's nice that you think that, and I and 60 million other brits would like to think that way too.... if the rest of the world thought that way. Unfortunately they don't, and so we can't.
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    the difference between free speech and racial hatred?

    ok here it is:

    its free speech when a black says "kill crackers"

    but its racial hatred when a white says "kill *******"

    welcome to 1984
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    (Original post by pooo)
    Personally, I've been in a good few fights with white people over racial insults they have thrown at my asian friends. And what really scared me was that my coloured (am I allowed to say that?) friends seem to accept it/think it was acceptable.

    WTF?!

    No one has the right to fight or insult you because of your skin colour. These experiences have made me really annoyed and wearied by racists, wondering how they could harbour auch hatred and instigate fights over such things. It made me question my stance on free speech. I think yes, everyone should think as they will - hate whatever race they want. But if education and society changed it's approach and aimed to demolish racial conflicts then there would be no little issue of racism.

    Maybe I am wrong for thinking this - but the world is changing. The whites do not 'rule' and nor should we really claim 'britaib to be about british' - we are world citizens before we are country citizens, we are human before we are British and we should put that common thread before race. I firmly believe in british values and cultures, but that doesn't mean victimising those who do not follow them. We have our own culture, and we ought to accept that others have theirs. Britain should be about freedom. Not about forcing everyone to adhere to a quintesential britiah stereotype.

    I don't think i'm answering the question very well. I think freedom of speech is most important, I have just expressed my opinion and it may be offensive or wrong in someone elses eyes. Just like if I read someone writing '**** of all blacks and take your moslamic ray guns back to israel with you' i'd find that offensive but I still wouldn't argue with the fact he had expressed his feelings, merely that I don't agree with them.

    so yeah, freedom of speech over other stuff. Though I don't agree with burning anything. It's ****ed up and backward.
    Please leave out your 'we are all wordl citizens' puke. I am white and Scottish first and foremost. I do not identify with non-whites, and I prefer the company of my own ethncity and other european ethnicity over non-white ethnics groups.
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    It's not hard.

    Free speech is the ability to say whatever one wants.

    Racial hatred is inciting hatred against another race.

    The reality is that these two things overlap, and our legal system is currently a bit confused because we don't really want to face that we have to choose between having freedom of speech or a tolerant society.

    Personally I'd go with the second - I used to be in favour of freedom of speech, until I really learned what bull**** black people have to put up with.
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    If you get arrested for it, then it must have been hate speech, if not then you were probably only being anti israeli. Shame you can't really tell until you've already been thrown in the clink.

    Does anyone else see a problem with the state interfering with what you say and what you think?

    Well I guess it's not technically a thought crime, after all you're allowed to *think* anything you like, as long as you never ever tell another living soul about it.

    Freedom is dead, breaking news, you live in a politically correct police state and if your opinions deviate too much from the norm, then you are at risk of being arrested and dragged through the courts. : )
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    (Original post by pooo)
    Personally, I've been in a good few fights with white people over racial insults they have thrown at my asian friends. And what really scared me was that my coloured (am I allowed to say that?) friends seem to accept it/think it was acceptable.

    WTF?!

    No one has the right to fight or insult you because of your skin colour. These experiences have made me really annoyed and wearied by racists, wondering how they could harbour auch hatred and instigate fights over such things. It made me question my stance on free speech. I think yes, everyone should think as they will - hate whatever race they want. But if education and society changed it's approach and aimed to demolish racial conflicts then there would be no little issue of racism.

    Maybe I am wrong for thinking this - but the world is changing. The whites do not 'rule' and nor should we really claim 'britaib to be about british' - we are world citizens before we are country citizens, we are human before we are British and we should put that common thread before race. I firmly believe in british values and cultures, but that doesn't mean victimising those who do not follow them. We have our own culture, and we ought to accept that others have theirs. Britain should be about freedom. Not about forcing everyone to adhere to a quintesential britiah stereotype.

    I don't think i'm answering the question very well. I think freedom of speech is most important, I have just expressed my opinion and it may be offensive or wrong in someone elses eyes. Just like if I read someone writing '**** of all blacks and take your moslamic ray guns back to israel with you' i'd find that offensive but I still wouldn't argue with the fact he had expressed his feelings, merely that I don't agree with them.

    so yeah, freedom of speech over other stuff. Though I don't agree with burning anything. It's ****ed up and backward.
    The world could do with less of your kind.
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    Free speech is Muslims calling for the UK to be bombed. Racial hatred is not letting them get away with it.
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    (Original post by Maddog Jones)
    It's not hard.

    Free speech is the ability to say whatever one wants.

    Racial hatred is inciting hatred against another race.

    The reality is that these two things overlap, and our legal system is currently a bit confused because we don't really want to face that we have to choose between having freedom of speech or a tolerant society.

    Personally I'd go with the second - I used to be in favour of freedom of speech, until I really learned what bull**** black people have to put up with.
    Black people also benefit from free speech...

    Do you really think that criminalising those who publicly affirm their "intolerance" for something will encourage tolerance towards that thing?

    At what point would you draw the line on what people are allowed to say -- where you really don't like what they're saying? Where you find it a little distasteful?
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    (Original post by pooo)
    Personally, I've been in a good few fights with white people over racial insults they have thrown at my asian friends. And what really scared me was that my coloured (am I allowed to say that?) friends seem to accept it/think it was acceptable.

    WTF?!

    No one has the right to fight or insult you because of your skin colour. These experiences have made me really annoyed and wearied by racists, wondering how they could harbour auch hatred and instigate fights over such things. It made me question my stance on free speech. I think yes, everyone should think as they will - hate whatever race they want. But if education and society changed it's approach and aimed to demolish racial conflicts then there would be no little issue of racism.

    Maybe I am wrong for thinking this - but the world is changing. The whites do not 'rule' and nor should we really claim 'britaib to be about british' - we are world citizens before we are country citizens, we are human before we are British and we should put that common thread before race. I firmly believe in british values and cultures, but that doesn't mean victimising those who do not follow them. We have our own culture, and we ought to accept that others have theirs. Britain should be about freedom. Not about forcing everyone to adhere to a quintesential britiah stereotype.

    I don't think i'm answering the question very well. I think freedom of speech is most important, I have just expressed my opinion and it may be offensive or wrong in someone elses eyes. Just like if I read someone writing '**** of all blacks and take your moslamic ray guns back to israel with you' i'd find that offensive but I still wouldn't argue with the fact he had expressed his feelings, merely that I don't agree with them.

    so yeah, freedom of speech over other stuff. Though I don't agree with burning anything. It's ****ed up and backward.
    While I agree that racism of all kinds is abhorrent, I haven't read such self-righteous, smug, naive horse poo in a long time.
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    I thought free speech protects you from censorship from the government. It does not protect you from being sued, stopped you from losing your job or prevents you from getting punched in the face when you decide to call a bouncer fat.

    I could be wrong, it's 3am
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    (Original post by TimmonaPortella)
    Black people also benefit from free speech...

    Do you really think that criminalising those who publicly affirm their "intolerance" for something will encourage tolerance towards that thing?

    At what point would you draw the line on what people are allowed to say -- where you really don't like what they're saying? Where you find it a little distasteful?
    The current laws work fine - freedom of speech up to the point where you are infringing the rights of others, or encouraging others to do so.
 
 
 
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