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    (Original post by Adorno)
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    Thanks for the rep babe
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    Takes punch and judy politics to a whole new level.
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    (Original post by Adorno)
    That's a very Anglo-Centric perspective.
    Are you saying that with a sense of irony because it's your catchphrase or because you're being serious?
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    (Original post by Norfolkadam)
    Are you saying that with a sense of irony because it's your catchphrase or because you're being serious?
    Sorry. I just edited the post...I was being serious.
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    (Original post by Teaddict)
    Thanks for the rep babe
    Right back at ya.
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    (Original post by Adorno)
    That's a very Anglo-Centric perspective. In Wales, for example (sorry!), Labour have announced that spending on the NHS here will stay the same over the life of the next assembly in order that education and local government might not be so severely hit. Then, in PMQs on Weds last, Cameron was berating Labour for cutting the NHS in Wales. So what is it to be? Are Labour to show that they have a different narrative: of more rounded cuts in which even the NHS loses something in order that burdens are shared more equally; or are Labour to be constantly told they have no alternative? I don't quite get the Right's point on this. Labour, where it is in government on a national level, has shown clearly that it has a way of dealing with budget cuts more fairly.
    From a very simplistic point of view Labour is having its cake and eating it. Ed Miliband goes and does a speech at the "No Cuts" rally and flirts with the "not a single cut" lobbies (Unions, UK Uncut et al) yet also wants to (and needs to) act rationally and put forward a manifesto of slower, shallower cuts.

    Can I also suggest that being in power in a devolved assembly is a whole different beast to being in the Westminster government. They can get away with a slower pace of budget balancing in Wales because the Welsh government doesn't have the world financial markets breathing down its neck, no-one looks to Cardiff to decide whether or not the UK is a viable economic force. Anglo-Centric or not that is the truth. To put as much emphasis on the devolved assemblies as you do is very much Celto-Centric.
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    (Original post by Norfolkadam)
    The left certainly do have legitimate worries. Their counter-narrative to the government's cuts is fragmented and (pretty much) indefensible. All they can do is stand on the sidelines and moan whilst most British people accept the need for cuts. They need to regain the middle-class votes they lost through Gordon Brown and they're not going to do that by appealing to trade unionists and activists. Frankly I feel a bit sorry for them because the only way they can win an election is by abandoning their values but that's politics for you.
    From a Westminster point of view I do get this sentiment though I do stand with him on opposition of cuts in many areas. I like Ed as a leader of Labour and think he's well on the way to bringing the party back to its roots. However he isn't going to win an election in a hurry since he'd indeed lack populist and middle-class support for being too left-wing.

    (Original post by Adorno)
    Naw. Labour will still win in Wales and I suspect we'll have either a Labour majority or a Lib-Lab coalition demonstrating that progressive politics isn't yet dead. The case in Scotland is different. You have a populist party with a presidential figure fighting against a Party that has defined the political focus of Scotland on the centre-left but as yet lacks a replacement for Donald Dewar. Had Dewar not died, Scotland would be Labour yet. It's not a time to worry. Indeed, if the Greens get a seat in the Senedd and Labour take back many of the English cities on Thursday, it might be a day to celebrate.
    Interesting, good news for Wales. Though if Salmond does end up dominating although we're not yet talking about secession could it well mean that the longer Labour does take to find a new figurehead the more it goes into the wilderness up there? Any UK Labour seat lost by 2015 to the SNP has effectively gone to the Tories, after all, as I doubt many people would alter voting habits depending on the election..
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    (Original post by Norfolkadam)
    From a very simplistic point of view Labour is having its cake and eating it. Ed Miliband goes and does a speech at the "No Cuts" rally and flirts with the "not a single cut" lobbies (Unions, UK Uncut et al) yet also wants to (and needs to) act rationally and put forward a manifesto of slower, shallower cuts.

    Can I also suggest that being in power in a devolved assembly is a whole different beast to being in the Westminster government. They can get away with a slower pace of budget balancing in Wales because the Welsh government doesn't have the world financial markets breathing down its neck, no-one looks to Cardiff to decide whether or not the UK is a viable economic force. Anglo-Centric or not that is the truth. To put as much emphasis on the devolved assemblies as you do is very much Celto-Centric.
    Celto-Centric or even Cambro-Centric (which might be the word you're after!) or not, the point remains that by including the NHS in the cuts, Labour in Wales has shown that there is a way of dealing with the cuts without pounding other departments to pieces. To compensate for their "no to NHS cuts" stance, the Welsh Tories admitted to a 20% cut in education! Anyone can see that's not really rational. But I think we can all accept that by safeguarding the NHS and not even thinking about cuts there, Cameron made a mistake. The NHS is full of fat and waste and some cuts to it would probably be benefitial in the same way as going to the gym helps a fat geezer. So Labour has a narrative and an example it can draw on in the future which is important to its rebuilding.

    So whilst the Tories and their allies ignore Cardiff, Labour may yet find a useful politics coming out of there. Particularly if, as seems to be Miliband's aim, they succeed in building some links with the progressive elements in the Lib Dems. A Lib-Lab coalition in Cardiff might well do some good for the Lib Dems elsewhere particuarly if it is replicated in Scotland. Indeed, if the SNP are to govern they will, as they have over the last parliament, have to rely on the Tories. This can only weaken the SNP in the long term.

    The financial markets thing is overplayed.
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    (Original post by rockrunride)
    From a Westminster point of view I do get this sentiment though I do stand with him on opposition of cuts in many areas. I like Ed as a leader of Labour and think he's well on the way to bringing the party back to its roots. However he isn't going to win an election in a hurry since he'd indeed lack populist and middle-class support for being too left-wing.
    It's a perception of being too left wing. He's not done much more than Neil Kinnock who was further left than Ed.

    Interesting, good news for Wales. Though if Salmond does end up dominating although we're not yet talking about secession could it well mean that the longer Labour does take to find a new figurehead the more it goes into the wilderness up there? Any UK Labour seat lost by 2015 to the SNP has effectively gone to the Tories, after all, as I doubt many people would alter voting habits depending on the election..
    Oh no, Labour aren't in a wilderness in Scotland. They still dominate Westminster seats and will be in position to make the most of Salmond's mistakes. It's just that Iain Grey is not very exciting as a leader and has none of the stature of Dewar or Salmond. If Salmond plays the independence card and it fails then he'll have to go and if you place Nichola Sturgeon against a better Labour leader than Grey, Labour will win again.

    Voting habits are fundamentally different for Westminster and the Devolved institutions. The SNP gets more seats in Holyrood because it is a "Scottish" party for Scottish interests, for most of the bread and butter issues this gives the SNP an advantage - not governed by a London HQ. Same goes for Plaid Cymru in Wales, they have many more seats than they have been able to win in Westminster elections. Labour does better for Westminster because it is a more powerful party there and so benefits from being a British party. I know lots of people who will vote for one party at one tier of government and another - usually Labour - at Westminster.
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    (Original post by Adorno)
    Celto-Centric or even Cambro-Centric (which might be the word you're after!) or not, the point remains that by including the NHS in the cuts, Labour in Wales has shown that there is a way of dealing with the cuts without pounding other departments to pieces. To compensate for their "no to NHS cuts" stance, the Welsh Tories admitted to a 20% cut in education! Anyone can see that's not really rational. But I think we can all accept that by safeguarding the NHS and not even thinking about cuts there, Cameron made a mistake. The NHS is full of fat and waste and some cuts to it would probably be benefitial in the same way as going to the gym helps a fat geezer. So Labour has a narrative and an example it can draw on in the future which is important to its rebuilding.

    So whilst the Tories and their allies ignore Cardiff, Labour may yet find a useful politics coming out of there. Particularly if, as seems to be Miliband's aim, they succeed in building some links with the progressive elements in the Lib Dems. A Lib-Lab coalition in Cardiff might well do some good for the Lib Dems elsewhere particuarly if it is replicated in Scotland. Indeed, if the SNP are to govern they will, as they have over the last parliament, have to rely on the Tories. This can only weaken the SNP in the long term.

    The financial markets thing is overplayed.
    Can I just say; I'm not a Tory and so I won't defend their every move; ringfencing the NHS was a mistake in my view, the burden of the cuts should be shared much more equally. Labour is probably right in what they are doing in Wales, I can honestly say I don't know enough about Welsh politics living on, literally, the other side of the country it's not something that crops up on my "radar". My argument is that their narrative is not coherent, on the one hand you're saying that Labour is proving it's responsibility by cutting the NHS in Wales and on the other hand Ed Miliband is seen as a friend of the totally anti-cuts unions and doesn't disassociate himself with the "No Cuts" lobby.

    I just don't think that people here in Norfolk or in Essex or Portsmouth (where the essential swing seats are) really care about what Labour does in the Welsh assembly. Okay it provides some throw-away lines about how they're responsible for their leaflets but it's just a fact of life that English people are generally blind to the worlds of Hollyrood and Cardiff and it's in England that the battle is won or lost.

    (Sorry, this isn't phrased very well but it's quite late).
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    (Original post by Norfolkadam)
    Can I just say; I'm not a Tory and so I won't defend their every move; ringfencing the NHS was a mistake in my view, the burden of the cuts should be shared much more equally. Labour is probably right in what they are doing in Wales, I can honestly say I don't know enough about Welsh politics living on, literally, the other side of the country it's not something that crops up on my "radar". My argument is that their narrative is not coherent, on the one hand you're saying that Labour is proving it's responsibility by cutting the NHS in Wales and on the other hand Ed Miliband is seen as a friend of the totally anti-cuts unions and doesn't disassociate himself with the "No Cuts" lobby.
    On the point about incoherence you are correct but the same is true of all three parties. It's just that Labour is being hit for opposing all cuts when this is just not true if you look at British politics in the round rather than solely concentrating on English politics.

    I just don't think that people here in Norfolk or in Essex or Portsmouth (where the essential swing seats are) really care about what Labour does in the Welsh assembly. Okay it provides some throw-away lines about how they're responsible for their leaflets but it's just a fact of life that English people are generally blind to the worlds of Hollyrood and Cardiff and it's in England that the battle is won or lost.
    Well I can only hope to offer some insight into what's going on here. Since Wales will be the only part of the United Kingdom governed by Labour for the life of the current parliament, assuming polls are right and they don't win in Scotland, then it stands to reason that Wales will have an inflated status in Labour thinking for the next while. Even more so if we end up with a Lib-Lab government. You may not care, voters in Norwich may not care, but for the Labour Party itself, it will be significant and as a result it will have an impact on how Labour approches the big questions in the United Kingdom as a whole in 2015.
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    (Original post by Thunder and Jazz)
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    Thanks sweetheart
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    Friend tells me that Comres have just put NO2AV on a 32% lead. RIP electoral reform, you will be sorely missed:


    Though perhaps not as much as Biggie was.

    EDIT: Scratch that, I will miss you more than Biggie, Nate Dogg + Tupac combined.
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    http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/

    ComRes has a new poll in tomorrow’s Independent, presumably their final call for the AV referendum. Topline referendum voting intention taking into account likelihood to vote and excluding don’t knows and won’t votes stands at YES 34%, NO 66%. 32 points is by far the largest lead we’ve seen for the NO campaign, up from 20 points in the last ComRes poll a week ago. Standard voting intention figures meanwhile were CON 34%(-1), LAB 37%(-4), LDEM 15%(+2), Others 14%
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    (Original post by Adorno)
    On the point about incoherence you are correct but the same is true of all three parties. It's just that Labour is being hit for opposing all cuts when this is just not true if you look at British politics in the round rather than solely concentrating on English politics.
    The English electorate do not look at British politics in the round. They look at what they're shown and if you don't get Reporting Scotland or Wales Today then you don't see how well Labour are doing, all you see is Ed Miliband on stage at the March for the Alternative in front of thousands of people waving "No Cuts" signs. Surely you can agree that, although what happens at Hollyrood and Cardiff is worth discussion, it's not something the English electorate take any notice of.

    Well I can only hope to offer some insight into what's going on here. Since Wales will be the only part of the United Kingdom governed by Labour for the life of the current parliament, assuming polls are right and they don't win in Scotland, then it stands to reason that Wales will have an inflated status in Labour thinking for the next while. Even more so if we end up with a Lib-Lab government. You may not care, voters in Norwich may not care, but for the Labour Party itself, it will be significant and as a result it will have an impact on how Labour approches the big questions in the United Kingdom as a whole in 2015.
    Okay, I'm not going to argue that a win in Cardiff won't be important and a very good opportunity to regain some support in Wales but, you said it yourself, voters in Norwich do not care and when all's said and done it's voters in Norwich who'll decide the next election.
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    (Original post by Norfolkadam)
    The English electorate do not look at British politics in the round. They look at what they're shown and if you don't get Reporting Scotland or Wales Today then you don't see how well Labour are doing, all you see is Ed Miliband on stage at the March for the Alternative in front of thousands of people waving "No Cuts" signs. Surely you can agree that, although what happens at Hollyrood and Cardiff is worth discussion, it's not something the English electorate take any notice of.
    Who knows what the English electorate pays any attention to. In places where employment is over the border or where being registered with a doctor on one side of the border means free prescriptions and on the other not, I suspect what happens in Cardiff or Holyrood makes some difference. In places further east then it doesn't. But that's how modern British politics is. Until Westminster catches up then the tensions will continue to be built up.


    Okay, I'm not going to argue that a win in Cardiff won't be important and a very good opportunity to regain some support in Wales but, you said it yourself, voters in Norwich do not care and when all's said and done it's voters in Norwich who'll decide the next election.
    The 2015 election will be the most fractious this country has faced in at least a generation so I think it's not quite so easily dismissed as you generally make it out to be. There are key marginals in Wales and Scotland as well, after all, and if the Tories want to advance or the Liberals don't wish to die, or Labour want to win those have to be gained as well. Or else you drive the narrative that is being pushed in Wales and Scotland even now: that these cuts are being pushed on us by an English party that cares little for the people who live on the Celtic Fringe. The more ignorant English politicians (and those who are interested in politics generally) are of what happens on the other side of the border, the more you drive separatism.
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    (Original post by Adorno)
    Who knows what the English electorate pays any attention to. In places where employment is over the border or where being registered with a doctor on one side of the border means free prescriptions and on the other not, I suspect what happens in Cardiff or Holyrood makes some difference. In places further east then it doesn't. But that's how modern British politics is. Until Westminster catches up then the tensions will continue to be built up.

    The 2015 election will be the most fractious this country has faced in at least a generation so I think it's not quite so easily dismissed as you generally make it out to be. There are key marginals in Wales and Scotland as well, after all, and if the Tories want to advance or the Liberals don't wish to die, or Labour want to win those have to be gained as well. Or else you drive the narrative that is being pushed in Wales and Scotland even now: that these cuts are being pushed on us by an English party that cares little for the people who live on the Celtic Fringe. The more ignorant English politicians (and those who are interested in politics generally) are of what happens on the other side of the border, the more you drive separatism.
    I'm off to bed now but you seem to be unaware of the irony of calling me anglo-centric to then go on to say how the Welsh assembly results will greatly affect the English electorate. It's just not true, I read a broadsheet everyday, I watch the news and Newsnight, I'd say I'm pretty up on current affairs but I couldn't honestly hold a conversation about devolved politics because I don't care, I never encounter any news of it and because it has no noticeable effect on my life. If you think the key voter demographic in the 2015 election is left-wing Welshmen or politically turned on people in Shropshire then you're thinking wrong.
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    (Original post by Norfolkadam)
    I'm off to bed now but you seem to be unaware of the irony of calling me anglo-centric to then go on to say how the Welsh assembly results will greatly affect the English electorate. It's just not true, I read a broadsheet everyday, I watch the news and Newsnight, I'd say I'm pretty up on current affairs but I couldn't honestly hold a conversation about devolved politics because I don't care, I never encounter any news of it and because it has no noticeable effect on my life. If you think the key voter demographic in the 2015 election is left-wing Welshmen or politically turned on people in Shropshire then you're thinking wrong.
    Thanks for the parody but again you twist my point which is elementary - that the nature of cuts in Wales will have an impact on the Labour Party's thinking and in turn will impact on the nature of debate on a British level as a consequence - into something other than that. I fail to see where I've departed from this essential point but it will have to wait until I get back from a research trip if you feel the urge to tell me.
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    (Original post by Adorno)
    Thanks for the parody but again you twist my point which is elementary - that the nature of cuts in Wales will have an impact on the Labour Party's thinking and in turn will impact on the nature of debate on a British level as a consequence - into something other than that. I fail to see where I've departed from this essential point but it will have to wait until I get back from a research trip if you feel the urge to tell me.
    I follow you up to the impact on the Labour Party's thinking. Where we disagree is the extent to which the happenings in the Welsh assembly affect the nature of the debate on a nationwide level. I think this is a fundamental disagreement between my Anglo-centrism and your Cambo-centrism.
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    If it affects Labour who are a national party... how can it not? I give up. I don't really see what your point is.
 
 
 
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