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    (Original post by Adorno)
    if we remove the politicians from it and have people there on the basis of contributions to other fields - including, by the way, trades unionists and representatives from non-professional jobs

    I agree
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    (Original post by spidergareth)
    However, it is madness that half of the people responsible for making our laws are completely unelected.
    Why? We don't elect our Prime Minister, that's not really a problem either...

    I also think it is hypocritical for conservatives, the most ardent defenders of having an unelected 2nd chamber, are the most vehement critics of the unelected European commission. Both are unelected affronts to democracy, why should one be reformed and the other not?
    Did I mention and/or criticise the Commission for being unelected? Usually when I attack the Commission it's on the basis of it being a useless and bureaucratic institution.

    And on your point of 'it works fine, so why change it'. If we had an extremely effective benevolent dictatorship running the country, would you also employ that argument?
    Depends who the dictator is
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    (Original post by Teaddict)
    Save for the PM's appointments it is very meritocractic. On the whole, the House of Lords is a fantastic institution and doesn't require the sort of root and branch reform people often wrongly suggest.
    Well there's the matter of the ****ing bishops who represent the Established Church of England which, let's not forget, is Established only in England. The last remaining life peers are there for no good reason and the place is stocked full of politicians who wipe out much of the potential good work of men such as Robert Winston. It doesn't take an awful lot to have a jaundiced view of the place. Although far more so than it does of the present House of Commons which is filled with careerists on all benches and Caroline Lucas :swoon:
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    (Original post by Adorno)
    Well there's the matter of the ****ing bishops who represent the Established Church of England which, let's not forget, is Established only in England. The last remaining life peers are there for no good reason and the place is stocked full of politicians who wipe out much of the potential good work of men such as Robert Winston. It doesn't take an awful lot to have a jaundiced view of the place. Although far more so than it does of the present House of Commons which is filled with careerists on all benches and Caroline Lucas :swoon:
    I'm not particularly bothered by the Bishops to be honest... they don't really turn up or do anything... They are there for names sake really.
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    (Original post by Teaddict)
    I'm not particularly bothered by the Bishops to be honest... they don't really turn up or do anything... They are there for names sake really.
    Well you're a Tory so tend to overlook points of principle however if we're aiming to make the House of Lords meritocratic and democratic at the same time, the Bishops of the Church of England (only) must be ejected from the House. Likewise, the Church of England should really be disestablished.
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    (Original post by Adorno)
    Well you're a Tory so tend to overlook points of principle however if we're aiming to make the House of Lords meritocratic and democratic at the same time, the Bishops of the Church of England (only) must be ejected from the House. Likewise, the Church of England should really be disestablished.
    I am not interested in a democratic House of Lords, I would much rather have a meritocractic House which is why I don't oppose having a few very senior Trade Unionists in the House - I guess it's only fair for them to have some degree of involvement.

    I don't support the disestablishment of the Church however.
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    :rofl: Apparently winding Robin up is insanely easy. This makes the socialist thread way more exciting.

    (Original post by Jace Falco)
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    (Original post by Adorno)
    Well you're a Tory so tend to overlook points of principle however if we're aiming to make the House of Lords meritocratic and democratic at the same time, the Bishops of the Church of England (only) must be ejected from the House. Likewise, the Church of England should really be disestablished.
    What would disestablishment mean exactly?
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    (Original post by aaran-j)
    What would disestablishment mean exactly?
    These days, it would mean the bishops would not sit in the House of Lords and that church and state would be separated in England as it is in Wales and Ireland (it basically is in Scotland though they found a different solution to their religious ills). Otherwise it would mean relatively little since the Church is so far out of most people's lives that it has no meaning however as a point of principle the issue of having an established Church in England remains.
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    I think this is the first time i can use antidisestablishmentarianism in context.
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    (Original post by Adorno)
    Well you're a Tory so tend to overlook points of principle however if we're aiming to make the House of Lords meritocratic and democratic at the same time, the Bishops of the Church of England (only) must be ejected from the House. Likewise, the Church of England should really be disestablished.
    How do you suggest this is possible?
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    (Original post by Adorno)
    :rofl: Apparently winding Robin up is insanely easy. This makes the socialist thread way more exciting.
    Sadly internets don't always carry my brand of humour particularly well. When I type in capitals, it is almost always because I am being facetiously brash, obnoxious and over reactive.
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    (Original post by arabcnesbit)
    How do you suggest this is possible?
    By sharing the way in which the House is elected and appointed by a fraction of merit / election.
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    (Original post by Jace Falco)
    Sadly internets don't always carry my brand of humour particularly well. When I type in capitals, it is almost always because I am being facetiously brash, obnoxious and over reactive.
    Lol, how long have I internet-ly known you? I believe when I first met you in the House you still muff dived occasionally / frequently Which is to say, yeah, I got your humour ... hence the image posted in reply.
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    (Original post by Adorno)
    By sharing the way in which the House is elected and appointed by a fraction of merit / election.
    So what would be the fraction and who decides who merits the appointment?
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    :yy:
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    (Original post by arabcnesbit)
    So what would be the fraction and who decides who merits the appointment?
    I have no idea, I'm not a constitutional lawyer. My personal view on the British set up is that it should be a) federal b) republican and c) unicameral. However, that is not a view that is very widely held anywhere.
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    (Original post by Adorno)
    You were drunk at the time or passed out, or making out with T/J, I can't remember which event is true and which is false.
    Now now. I don't think I made out with Paddy. Just that Alex girl BBT brought along.
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    (Original post by Thunder and Jazz)
    Now now. I don't think I made out with Paddy. Just that Alex girl BBT brought along.
    Quite so.
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