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Is the government intent on damaging Oxford? watch

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    Oxford commands an excellent academic reputation, internationally, because it only accepts the very best and brightest. Even people with As and A*s are not guaranteed admission unless they demonstrate exceptional academic ability.

    But will all this talk from the government about Oxford not having enough people from: a) poor backgrounds b) state schools c) of black ethnic origin put pressure on them to water down their strict academic standards to appear more diverse?

    Will they start putting affirmative action and diversity before merit? Will this be voluntary (albeit through pressure) or will the government enforce it?
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    Are you intent on damaging social progress for minority groups and people from working-class backgrounds? In the hierarchy of how much I give a **** about things, the sanctity of Oxford as an institution of white public school kids ranks pretty low.
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    At the end of the day, It isn't Oxfords fault. They cannot take applicants that do not have the required grades or skills for the courses simply because they are poorer, or from a state school. The problem should be addressed much further down. Oxford are doing a lot more than some universities to try and widen participation, and if the government tries to force them to hit quotas, it isn't fair on the university.
    As someone from a state school/poorer background, I would hate to be accepted into Oxford simply because they wanted to look more diverse, and it isn't fair that the government picked on one specific university either.
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    There has been a lot of pressure put on Oxford recently due to their decision to charge the full £9000 for all of its courses from next year (although, complaining about them doing that is sort of like dangling a piece of cake in front of a fat kid and slapping him when he takes a bite) and for the numbers of students it takes in from ethnic minority backgrounds and from state schools.

    There's no way the government will force them to change their ways any more than they do now with their targets for numbers of students from certain backgrounds, because if there's one UK university that can afford to sever ties with the government and go private, it's Oxford. It could charge what it wants for its degrees and know all courses will still be oversubscribed, and sell its research on the free market.
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    (Original post by JCC-MGS)
    Are you intent on damaging social progress for minority groups and people from working-class backgrounds? In the hierarchy of how much I give a **** about things, the sanctity of Oxford as an institution of white public school kids ranks pretty low.
    No, but I believe in meritocracy over social engineering. Affirmative action is not the way in the long-term to improve the social progress of minority groups.

    And, maintaining the academic sanctity of Oxford is very important for the United Kingdom.
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    (Original post by storna)
    No, but I believe in meritocracy over social engineering. Affirmative action is not the way in the long-term to improve the social progress of minority groups.
    Are you white and affluent? Because if so, you're the lucky product of social engineering.
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    They're noising off about fair access to universities whilst remaining tellingly quiet about the public schools many of them went to.
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    (Original post by JCC-MGS)
    Are you intent on damaging social progress for minority groups and people from working-class backgrounds? In the hierarchy of how much I give a **** about things, the sanctity of Oxford as an institution of white public school kids ranks pretty low.
    Fight the disease, not the symptoms.
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    I don't think Oxford will ever sacrifice its entry standards to comply with government whims. It's been operating virtually unchanged for hundreds of years; that's a lot of momentum.

    However, recognition that three A grades may come more easily to a public school student than a student from a comprehensive in the north may lead to a reassessment of what someone's grades actually say about them. That's already happening now, and I do think that's a good thing.
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    (Original post by JCC-MGS)
    Are you white and affluent? Because if so, you're the lucky product of social engineering.
    Nice ad hom.
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    (Original post by storna)
    Oxford commands an excellent academic reputation, internationally, because it only accepts the very best and brightest. Even people with As and A*s are not guaranteed admission unless they demonstrate exceptional academic ability.

    But will all this talk from the government about Oxford not having enough people from: a) poor backgrounds b) state schools c) of black ethnic origin put pressure on them to water down their strict academic standards to appear more diverse?

    Will they start putting affirmative action and diversity before merit? Will this be voluntary (albeit through pressure) or will the government enforce it?
    Even speaking as someone off to Cambridge (so clearly I should be cheering this ) I must say it sounds hugely vindictive and unfair of the government to be singling out Oxford as a university which does not accept enough black people. Having been through a similar admissions process, I could not imagine a process better designed to take account of everyone's personal circumstances and whilst being individual being entirely blind to race etc. - it REALLY is not in their interests to accept anyone other than the best when they need to stay on top of their game. ALL they care about is the academic ability & potential of candidates. As they said, they can only assess candidates who have applied to them; and they cannot change the social issues of the country at large. Which are, to face facts, that more young black people than white people have suffered disastrous education at poor inner city comprehensives and have fallen into crime and bad habits - see crime stats. This isn't their fault, it is a widespread social problem about which something must be done; it is truly a disgrace in a developed and supposedly equal-opportunities country, but it is disingenious to blame Oxford for poor applicants from such backgrounds! Though I don't think this is fees related - Oxbridge were always predicted to charge £9k since they already have more than adequate access arrangements and spend so much per student on education (at Cambridge, they put in £6k of funding per student per year).
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    The government has been staying stuff for years and Oxford - I'm proud to say - hasn't been bowing down to that pressure. Instead it's been constantly trying to attract more diversity in far more sensible, less demeaning ways
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    (Original post by storna)
    Nice ad hom.
    That isn't an ad hominem, nice try though.
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    (Original post by Addzter)
    There has been a lot of pressure put on Oxford recently due to their decision to charge the full £9000 for all of its courses from next year (although, complaining about them doing that is sort of like dangling a piece of cake in front of a fat kid and slapping him when he takes a bite) and for the numbers of students it takes in from ethnic minority backgrounds and from state schools.

    There's no way the government will force them to change their ways any more than they do now with their targets for numbers of students from certain backgrounds, because if there's one UK university that can afford to sever ties with the government and go private, it's Oxford. It could charge what it wants for its degrees and know all courses will still be oversubscribed, and sell its research on the free market.
    http://www.ox.ac.uk/media/news_relea.../110315_1.html
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    (Original post by TurboCretin)
    I don't think Oxford will ever sacrifice its entry standards to comply with government whims. It's been operating virtually unchanged for hundreds of years; that's a lot of momentum.

    However, recognition that three A grades may come more easily to a public school student than a student from a comprehensive in the north may lead to a reassessment of what someone's grades actually say about them. That's already happening now, and I do think that's a good thing.
    I believe it already happens now - certainly at Cambridge, there's a special access scheme to enable students from poor schools to enable grades to be considered in context. (CSAS)
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    19% of oxford students are from non white backgrounds.

    indians and chinese are overrepresented. whites are underrepresented.


    so, yeah. whats the government playing at? inciting racial hatred against white people i would suggest.



    oxford university source:


    ox.ac.uk/about_the_university/facts_and_figures/undergraduate_admissions_statist ics/ethnic_origin.html
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    (Original post by JCC-MGS)
    Are you white and affluent? Because if so, you're the lucky product of social engineering.


    how so?

    are you saying i didn't put in those 50 hours last week?
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    (Original post by Addzter)
    There has been a lot of pressure put on Oxford recently due to their decision to charge the full £9000 for all of its courses from next year (although, complaining about them doing that is sort of like dangling a piece of cake in front of a fat kid and slapping him when he takes a bite) and for the numbers of students it takes in from ethnic minority backgrounds and from state schools.

    There's no way the government will force them to change their ways any more than they do now with their targets for numbers of students from certain backgrounds, because if there's one UK university that can afford to sever ties with the government and go private, it's Oxford. It could charge what it wants for its degrees and know all courses will still be oversubscribed, and sell its research on the free market.
    True, but Oxford is one of the universities they KNEW would always charge £9k, and would have accepted doing so quite easily (especially if it was one of about just 5, as was predicted). The 9k limit was supposed to be just for a select few, and Oxford would always have been in that group. At Cambridge, which I imagine is financially similar, they subsidise each student themselves by an average of £6000 per year as it is, so it would be very unfair to not allow those universities to charge the highest fees in view of teaching and research cuts!
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    (Original post by Addzter)
    There has been a lot of pressure put on Oxford recently due to their decision to charge the full £9000 for all of its courses from next year (although, complaining about them doing that is sort of like dangling a piece of cake in front of a fat kid and slapping him when he takes a bite) and for the numbers of students it takes in from ethnic minority backgrounds and from state schools.

    There's no way the government will force them to change their ways any more than they do now with their targets for numbers of students from certain backgrounds, because if there's one UK university that can afford to sever ties with the government and go private, it's Oxford. It could charge what it wants for its degrees and know all courses will still be oversubscribed, and sell its research on the free market.
    Actually, given that Oxford subsidises undergraduate tuition to the tune of £8k per student per year, it's more like dangling a piece of cake in front of a hungry kid. The university really can't afford that kind of subsidy long-term.
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    (Original post by Vinchenko)
    I believe it already happens now - certainly at Cambridge, there's a special access scheme to enable students from poor schools to enable grades to be considered in context. (CSAS)
    CSAS is for extenuating circumstances, not poor schools, surely?
 
 
 

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