Turn on thread page Beta
    Offline

    11
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Planar)
    They shouldn't get subsidies because subsidies are for inducing people to do things they may not otherwise do. As it stands, we have enough people trying to become doctors, so it does not make sense to subsidise them.
    Uh, no. As others have pointed out, we subsidise medical degrees to the extent that we do because we value the ability to ensure that the most competent people can do them from all walks of life. It doesn't particularly matter if we only get thick millionaires studying philosophy. It does for medicine. The government wants the best, and it's willing to pay for them. Subsidies aren't for rewarding an unpopular course, it's opening the competition pool.

    (Original post by Planar)
    Of course they're not, but why should arts students have to pay more just so science students can pay less? It's not fair.
    It wouldn't be "fair" if people from all walks of life couldn't afford to study sciences due to the greater expense involved. If you don't like paying more for less, do a course where you get more for your money.

    Not that you've actually offered any evidence for your claim that arts students do subsidise STEM students, of course. Given the climate of worldwide cuts to humanities departments because of their limited profitability, I find it doubtful that the humanities as a whole subsidise STEM subjects to any large extent. Demanding that students face the market red in tooth and claw, rather than making the cost of degrees uniform, may not work out as well for arts students as you would like.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by thisismycatch22)
    Uh, no. As others have pointed out, we subsidise medical degrees to the extent that we do because we value the ability to ensure that the most competent people can do them from all walks of life. It doesn't particularly matter if we only get thick millionaires studying philosophy. It does for medicine. The government wants the best, and it's willing to pay for them. Subsidies aren't for rewarding an unpopular course, it's opening the competition pool.
    Because students do not pay fees(graduates do the paying), the argument that high fees punish the poor is false. If we put the fees up to £25k a year(a number plucked from the air, by the way), even the very poorest could still afford degrees in medicine.

    It wouldn't be "fair" if people from all walks of life couldn't afford to study sciences due to the greater expense involved. If you don't like paying more for less, do a course where you get more for your money.
    This is the same argument you made in the paragraph above, and it's as much moot here as there.[/QUOTE]
    Offline

    11
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Planar)
    Because students do not pay fees(graduates do the paying), the argument that high fees punish the poor is false. If we put the fees up to £25k a year(a number plucked from the air, by the way), even the very poorest could still afford degrees in medicine.
    Assuming that the poor are just as happy to take on a great deal of financial risk as the rich, they can leave work for 6 years of study with only the loans and no additional bursaries, and wouldn't be concerned with ££k of debt for absolutely no benefit were they to drop out, then yes, the argument would be false! Your number certainly was plucked out of the air. The true fees for a medical degree would be a quarter of a million pounds in total, were there no "unfair" subsidies. I'm sure the very poorest applicants wouldn't see anything wrong with accepting that level of risk just because art history students think government subsidies are "unfair".

    Graduates certainly do pay fees. The graduate course is also more heavily subsidised even though it's even more oversubscribed than the five year course. By your argument we should scrap GEP bursaries since it's so competitive, and let the less able but richer applicants get in by sole virtue of being able to afford the fees. Up until now, the government and medical schools haven't seen eye to eye with you on selection by wallet as being such a good thing. But with the state of student finance as it is now, perhaps you'll get your wish and the quality of medical students will go down. Hooray for "fairness"!

    If you were going to provide evidence for the central claim of your argument at any point, by the way, I'd be happy to read it.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by maxpemberton)
    Hello, wondering if anyone here might be able to help.
    I'm writing a feature for the Daily Telegraph looking at medical student debt and examining how the new legislation regarding increased tuition fees might impact on people deciding to do medical degrees, the types of people that will be put off, later career choices within medicine etc.
    I'd love to hear from any students that are thinking of applying to medical school and are worried about how they will pay their fees or are questioing if they are going to apply because of future debt. Also, anyone who has given up a course in medicine because of debt or facing problems because of debt?
    Thanks so much.
    Max
    Dr. Pemberton, I'm a 4th year medic. Although, I'm already studying I just wanted to make the comparison that 6 years ago, I applied to medical school when tuition was still ~£1200/year, and my application wasn't successful, which meant I had to reapply the following year and was consequently offered a place at med school. However, my tuition fees were subject to the introduction of top up fees, meaning i paid ~£3000.00. On calculation, it seemed that with money saved from my "gap year" + my eligibility for a tuition loan maintenance loan and grant would cover, most of the costs associated with my course. This was proven by the The impact of the "2006-07 package" of reforms to HE funding Report by the Instutite of Fiscal Studies, which detailed the additional financial aid in comparison to the expenditures made.

    If I applied post-2011, to cut a long story short, I would not have been able to afford it as similar coverage for a prospective maintenance loan and grant is less than adequate. (It was only the increased maintenance loan and grant that made university generally accessible with the introduction of top-up fees.

    a debt of £6-9000/year (£36000-54000 for 5/6 years study), depending on my parent's income ( and not including living costs) would be a horrible burden of stress on an individual at medical school and to a family household where a mortgage needs to be paid, and other siblings may be at or are starting university.

    It will also detract a proportion of students with the potential to become doctors as they opt to do other courses free under the NHS (radiography/radiotherapy, audiology, physiotheraphy, nursing, midwifery, etc) as opposed to medicine
    Offline

    17
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by medic_armadillo7)
    It will also detract a proportion of students with the potential to become doctors as they opt to do other courses free under the NHS (radiography/radiotherapy, audiology, physiotheraphy, nursing, midwifery, etc) as opposed to medicine
    If the NHS bursary system is scrapped or isn't increased in line with the new fees, all health care related courses will be affected.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by medic_armadillo7)
    It will also detract a proportion of students with the potential to become doctors as they opt to do other courses free under the NHS (radiography/radiotherapy, audiology, physiotheraphy, nursing, midwifery, etc) as opposed to medicine
    With the Modernising Scientific Careers pathway that the NHS is undertaking, many of these options will no longer be financially supported and the courses are changing completely as a result. For example, Audiology is chaning from a specific 4 year funded degree with plenty of practical placements, to an un-funded 3 year un-specific degree ("Neurosensory" with some audiology modules instead) with very little in the way of practical placements. Though there is positive spin being put on this (e.g. finishing a year earlier, having more general background knowledge) I can't see this as mostly being a good thing (less specialised knowledge, less practical experience, lack of NHS funding putting applicants off, etc). This is happening with all of these previously NHS funded degrees as far as I know. So even these options won't be available anymore, though it's true that a 3 year degree will still end up costing far less than a 5/6 year degree, it may be that such applicants will opt for a different area completely as a result (e.g. politics/law/vet/english/whatever). Though this may also help to ensure that those who continue are only the truly dedicated, this can't be good to make it harder for people to become healthcare workers/doctors in the long run as it will be the populace in general that loses out.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by maxpemberton)
    Hello, wondering if anyone here might be able to help.
    I'm writing a feature for the Daily Telegraph looking at medical student debt and examining how the new legislation regarding increased tuition fees might impact on people deciding to do medical degrees, the types of people that will be put off, later career choices within medicine etc.
    I'd love to hear from any students that are thinking of applying to medical school and are worried about how they will pay their fees or are questioing if they are going to apply because of future debt. Also, anyone who has given up a course in medicine because of debt or facing problems because of debt?
    Thanks so much.
    Max
    Here is an interesting statistic for you from the BMA

    Students who began their degree in 2006 can expect to graduate with debt of up to £37,000 (£46,000 in London)

    The BMA estimates that if universities charge fees of up to £9,000, medical students could see their debts increase to almost £70,000.


    http://www.bma.org.uk/press_centre/presstuitionfees.jsp

    This is my own thinking,but if you study in london, the debt level could be as high as not 70 grand as said in the article, but 80/85 grand.

    And Nick clegg talks about increasing socail mobility. PAH - this is why I'm voting NO to AV, anyone who votes yes may as well suck his penis.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by girlwithsharpteeth)
    With the Modernising Scientific Careers pathway that the NHS is undertaking, many of these options will no longer be financially supported and the courses are changing completely as a result. For example, Audiology is chaning from a specific 4 year funded degree with plenty of practical placements, to an un-funded 3 year un-specific degree ("Neurosensory" with some audiology modules instead) with very little in the way of practical placements. Though there is positive spin being put on this (e.g. finishing a year earlier, having more general background knowledge) I can't see this as mostly being a good thing (less specialised knowledge, less practical experience, lack of NHS funding putting applicants off, etc). This is happening with all of these previously NHS funded degrees as far as I know. So even these options won't be available anymore, though it's true that a 3 year degree will still end up costing far less than a 5/6 year degree, it may be that such applicants will opt for a different area completely as a result (e.g. politics/law/vet/english/whatever). Though this may also help to ensure that those who continue are only the truly dedicated, this can't be good to make it harder for people to become healthcare workers/doctors in the long run as it will be the populace in general that loses out.
    Actually, thanks for that. I was under the impression that those wouldn't be affected, when actually they will. Oh well, there goes the NHS taskforce.
    Offline

    10
    ReputationRep:
    I am extremely grateful that i managed to get an offer this year since i am a Gap year student. I can say now, without a doubt, that i would not have applied next year for medicine in England if i was unsuccessful this year. This would be solely due to the tuition fee rise. My family cannot afford 9k every year and i would not want to be in 45 000 quid of debt (this being only fees and not even including maintenance) when i graduate. I have been told that finding a part time job while studying Med is quite tough due to the work load etc.
    Offline

    10
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by maxpemberton)
    -
    Truthfully, I've went from definitely applying to 'wait and see who is charging what before deciding', which is immensely disappointing. Should Scottish universities choose not to raise fee's for non-Scottish home students then the obvious outcome will be a massive rise in applicants in Scotland accompanied by a drop elsewhere in the UK.

    I'm already facing the prospect of £3,300 fees in Scotland as a postgraduate. I also do not qualify for the English and Welsh GEP's since I am a Scottish national with a professional degree. I do not qualify for a loan either due to a reasonable, yet not excessive combined parental income. So what do I do?

    Surrender what summertime I can afford to in order to work 100 hour locum weeks as a pharmacist to pay off my yearly tuition fee's and living costs; subsequently hoping I don't sink into too much debt come clinical years?

    Go to the bank, cap in hand and hope they take my house, car and earning potential as collateral should I fail to make it through medicine and/or fall behind with payments?

    Hope to christ Scottish universities see sense and offer some form of viable alternative to the English and Welsh systems for funding medicine as a second degree?

    Sack it all off completely and focus on a nice 37.5 h/week debt free life as a pharmacist doing something that is ultimately second best as far as where my heart lies?


    Can't help but feel it's always the middle who suffer!

    Kind regards, Alan
 
 
 
Reply
Submit reply
Turn on thread page Beta
Updated: April 23, 2011

University open days

  1. University of Cambridge
    Christ's College Undergraduate
    Wed, 26 Sep '18
  2. Norwich University of the Arts
    Undergraduate Open Days Undergraduate
    Fri, 28 Sep '18
  3. Edge Hill University
    Faculty of Health and Social Care Undergraduate
    Sat, 29 Sep '18
Poll
Which accompaniment is best?

The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

Write a reply...
Reply
Hide
Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.