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When do you think life begins? watch

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    (Original post by Manesh2468)
    But you need the heart to supply blood to the brain in order for it to function, i think this is a never ending cycle, its a very opinionated topic, but yeh your right about the brain being who you are bit
    ah but then you could say the same about needing lungs or needing kidneys you die if they fail as well so that doesn't make the heart any more important than your other organs, what makes the heart so special? but after asking the op if they meant being actually alive the the way all organisms are alive or being a person they said
    "Of course.
    But personhood is define by many as when people have the ability to have conscious experiences, the ability to feel happy, sad, loving etc, the ablity to solve new and complex problems, the capacity to communicate, they have self-awareness and have moral principles. This is when it prevents confusion, as this would suggest that people in a coma or with severe disabilities aren't conisdered a 'person' which is obviously wrong."

    and then later stated that they should of phrased their question better and included things about abortion and euthanasia.

    so from that point I think that to be "alive" as they meant it you need to be you not just a living thing.
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    (Original post by BlueJoker)
    When the heart starts beating. Because it ends when the heart stops.
    (Original post by JDesole)
    Same here
    (Original post by humble_bumble)
    When the heart beats.
    (Original post by Prettygeek)
    when the heart starts beating
    (Original post by Manesh2468)
    i think its when the heart first starts beating, because thats like the most important function.
    Does that mean that when someone's heart stops they are dead? Take cardiac surgery - the heart will not beat for hours, and if its a heart transplant it will never beat again! Are these patients then dead in your view?

    Or if you remove a heart and keep it beating outside of the body - is that organ alive in itself now? Can i cut up the rest of the body as long as i keep this heart ok?

    Its just to me people who say this are attaching great value to an arbitrary organ, mainly because you can see it moving and it gets an emotional response rather than for any logical reason.

    EDIT:
    (Original post by Calumcalum)
    The most striking thing about this question is the arbitrariness of most people's answers. Why should it be birth, or the heart starting to beat?
    Exactly ^
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    The most striking thing about this question is the arbitrariness of most people's answers. Why should it be birth, or the heart starting to beat? Even the attractiveness of going down the neurological route is deceptive - some people suggest when the first neuron fires. But why should this be so? Most other cells work in ways similar to neurons, it is just that neurons often have action potentials which can propagate more rapidly and directionally than voltage changes in other cells.
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    (Original post by PendulumBoB)
    Damn, what's your story?
    oh i'm just being pessimistic
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    (Original post by nexttime)
    Does that mean that when someone's heart stops they are dead? Take cardiac surgery - the heart will not beat for hours, and if its a heart transplant it will never beat again! Are these patients then dead in your view?
    Honestly? Yes. They are briefly dead. Sounds weird, but in my opinion it's true. If I had an accident and my heart stopped beating on the operating table or something, but they managed to get it going again, I would say that for a few moments I had been dead.

    It's all subjective, I know. But that's my opinion.

    EDIT: If it's a heart transplant, they have a new heart and it's beating in their body. They still have a pulse. So they're still alive.
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    (Original post by nexttime)
    Does that mean that when someone's heart stops they are dead? Take cardiac surgery - the heart will not beat for hours, and if its a heart transplant it will never beat again! Are these patients then dead in your view?

    Or if you remove a heart and keep it beating outside of the body - is that organ alive in itself now? Can i cut up the rest of the body as long as i keep this heart ok?

    Its just to me people who say this are attaching great value to an arbitrary organ, mainly because you can see it moving and it gets an emotional response rather than for any logical reason.

    EDIT:

    Exactly ^
    but dont they keep the blood pumping around the body through alot of machines which reoxygenate the blood, the heart pumps blood to the lungs where it is reoxygenated and then sent back to the heart and sent around the body which is known as the double circulatory loop, the heart itself is not the reason for life but its function- to pump blood around the body is what i find it soo important for.
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    (Original post by BlueJoker)
    Honestly? Yes. They are briefly dead. Sounds weird, but in my opinion it's true. If I had an accident and my heart stopped beating on the operating table or something, but they managed to get it going again, I would say that for a few moments I had been dead.

    It's all subjective, I know. But that's my opinion.
    Sorry i edited my post, so just to add: What about if i take your body and remove your heart but keep it beating (easily achievable) - are you now dead? Is your heart alive in itself? Can i cut up the rest of your body with no moral problems as long as i keep your heart beating?
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    (Original post by nexttime)
    'Life' does not necessarily equate with abortion limit - we kill 'alive' animals after all.

    When something is alive and when it deserves the moral value of a humans are not the same.
    Very good point!
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    21, when you've left education, are legally fully an adult, and have a world full of opportunity at your feet.
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    (Original post by Manesh2468)
    but dont they keep the blood pumping around the body through alot of machines which reoxygenate the blood, the heart pumps blood to the lungs where it is reoxygenated and then sent back to the heart and sent around the body which is known as the double circulatory loop, the heart itself is not the reason for life but its function- to pump blood around the body is what i find it soo important for.
    But i thought you were dead without a heart? So you are now changing your story to be 'you are alive as long as your blood is moving'?

    What about if i remove a heart and keep it beating, but let the body just waste away. Are you alive then )your heart is still beating, after all)?
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    (Original post by nexttime)
    Does that mean that when someone's heart stops they are dead? Take cardiac surgery - the heart will not beat for hours, and if its a heart transplant it will never beat again! Are these patients then dead in your view?

    Or if you remove a heart and keep it beating outside of the body - is that organ alive in itself now? Can i cut up the rest of the body as long as i keep this heart ok?

    Its just to me people who say this are attaching great value to an arbitrary organ, mainly because you can see it moving and it gets an emotional response rather than for any logical reason.

    EDIT:

    Exactly ^
    What do you reckon, nexttime? I actually think the conception view has more weight than it's often considered to - at least there's some fairly sensible reason behind it!
    (My problem here is that most people assume my attraction to it is for religious reasons - to the contrary, they play little role in this debate for me, if any)!
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    (Original post by nexttime)
    Sorry i edited my post, so just to add: What about if i take your body and remove your heart but keep it beating (easily achievable) - are you now dead? Is your heart alive in itself? Can i cut up the rest of your body with no moral problems as long as i keep your heart beating?
    No because I wouldn't have a pulse. The heart isn't beating inside me.

    This is all my personal opinion, stop trying to twist things and catch me out - I'm not trying to enforce any views on you.
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    (Original post by nexttime)
    But i thought you were dead without a heart? So you are now changing your story to be 'you are alive as long as your blood is moving'?

    What about if i remove a heart and keep it beating, but let the body just waste away. Are you alive then )your heart is still beating, after all)?
    no because your brain is being deprived of oxygen and so you die =/ you cant be dead without a heart if your on the machine which does the whole function of a heart while your having surgery....
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    (Original post by BlueJoker)
    Honestly? Yes. They are briefly dead. Sounds weird, but in my opinion it's true. If I had an accident and my heart stopped beating on the operating table or something, but they managed to get it going again, I would say that for a few moments I had been dead.

    It's all subjective, I know. But that's my opinion.

    EDIT: If it's a heart transplant, they have a new heart and it's beating in their body. They still have a pulse. So they're still alive.
    Is it someone else's life they're living?
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    (Original post by BlueJoker)
    No because I wouldn't have a pulse. The heart isn't beating inside me.

    This is all my personal opinion, stop trying to twist things and catch me out - I'm not trying to enforce any views on you.
    So you now think it is to do with blood flowing (causing a pulse), and not the heart?

    I am honestly not trying to 'catch you out' - i'm trying to point out that picking a random thing like 'heart beating' is rather pointless as life is far more complex.
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    (Original post by Calumcalum)
    Is it someone else's life they're living?
    No. I don't believe the heart is some magical thing, it's just an organ. But what's the most simple way to check if someone's dead? See if they have a pulse.
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    (Original post by nexttime)
    So you now think it is to do with blood flowing (causing a pulse), and not the heart?

    I am honestly not trying to 'catch you out' - i'm trying to point out that picking a random thing like 'heart beating' is rather pointless as life is far more complex.
    Oh Jesus Christ, why does everyone have to get so nitpicky and go into the philosophy of it all?

    If there is a heart beating inside you, you are alive.
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    (Original post by Manesh2468)
    no because your brain is being deprived of oxygen and so you die =/ you cant be dead without a heart if your on the machine which does the whole function of a heart while your having surgery....
    Hang on what? You just said that starting is due to heart starting to beat but now you say that you 'die' when your brain stops functioning? Which is it?

    And if you're saying 'your heart keeps your brain alive' - so does every other part of your body. Even your fingers are ultimately important in keeping you alive (without them it would be more difficult to get food etc)
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    (Original post by BlueJoker)
    No. I don't believe the heart is some magical thing, it's just an organ. But what's the most simple way to check if someone's dead? See if they have a pulse.
    Depends how you define death, I suppose... that's not the clinical definition though
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    (Original post by BlueJoker)
    Oh Jesus Christ, why does everyone have to get so nitpicky and go into the philosophy of it all?

    If there is a heart beating inside you, you are alive.
    I did post it on the philosophy bit...kind of expected the going 'into the philosophy of it all'....
 
 
 
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