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    (Original post by maggiewalley)
    I did post it on the philosophy bit...kind of expected the going 'into the philosophy of it all'....
    Sure but when I post my opinion and a brief explanation I don't understand why other people then feel the need to twist my words and try and prove me "wrong". It's all subjective, and that's my personal opinion.
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    (Original post by nexttime)
    So you now think it is to do with blood flowing (causing a pulse), and not the heart?

    I am honestly not trying to 'catch you out' - i'm trying to point out that picking a random thing like 'heart beating' is rather pointless as life is far more complex.
    what im trying to say is that when the heart is beating it is able to pump blood around the body to all the necessary organs and parts of the body that require blood in order for them to function correctly, when blood is not pumped around the body you die because no organs are getting oxygen and so you die which is why im saying the heart is of importance when it is inside your body and is NOT TAKEN OUT
    I will also say that all the organs are necessary e.g. lungs which oxygenate the blood and send it back to the heart to be pumped around the body (double circulatory loop), yes they are all living organs which make the whole person "live".
    I understand what you mean about the heart beating being pointless, but are you really going to be able to put someone on support quick enough as soon as the heart stops beating when not in a hospital enviroment to prevent them from dieing? The heart creates a pulse rate, which machines dont and therefor whilst the person would be on the machine they would not have a pulse, however all there organs would be recieving oxygenated blood and so would be able to live.
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    Mine started at 13/14 but considering my circumstances, I developed waaaaaaaaaaay faster than most 16 year old girls. And I don't mean physically! I mean psychologically and emotionally!

    When I say my circumstances I mean my parents are still alive and healthy and so are my siblings! So I'm not those 'special cases' where the child needs to look after the parents.
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    (Original post by nexttime)
    Hang on what? You just said that starting is due to heart starting to beat but now you say that you 'die' when your brain stops functioning? Which is it?

    And if you're saying 'your heart keeps your brain alive' - so does every other part of your body. Even your fingers are ultimately important in keeping you alive (without them it would be more difficult to get food etc)
    when your brain stops functioning your heart does aswell slowly, if your heart stops beating first e.g. it is ripped out of you, then your brain is deprived of oxygen and so you die. The heart beating is what pumps blood around your body, if the heart did not beat WHILE IT WAS INSIDE YOU then blood would not be pumped around your body, reaching the brain and so youd die.....
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    When I say so.
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    (Original post by BlueJoker)
    Oh Jesus Christ, why does everyone have to get so nitpicky and go into the philosophy of it all?

    If there is a heart beating inside you, you are alive.
    but if you are brain dead are you alive or is a body still alive?
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    Who here 'knows' of their beginning, I for one do not know when I began nor do I know when I end; I merely am. I take comfort in the fact that from my perspective life lives on forever.
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    (Original post by boba)
    but if you are brain dead are you alive or is a body still alive?
    -.-



    You are.
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    (Original post by BlueJoker)
    -.-



    You are.
    why the -.- face? it was a genuine question as to whether that was actually what you believed or if you had just not considered it. a forum is for discussion not just for people to list what they think without any interaction or debate.
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    (Original post by Calumcalum)
    What do you reckon, nexttime? I actually think the conception view has more weight than it's often considered to - at least there's some fairly sensible reason behind it!
    (My problem here is that most people assume my attraction to it is for religious reasons - to the contrary, they play little role in this debate for me, if any)!
    First off i'd just like to say i try to avoid debating morals - ultimately they are all down to opinion and their consequences (like law) are just down to majority opinion. I don't mind sharing a view once in a while though...

    The bigger question here is more what is 'life' in the first place. Most people here are equating it with what we consider to be a human in terms of morality, although my first instinct was from a scientific perspective. I will deal with each separately:

    I believe life is any intentionally self-replicating being. This includes viruses, individual cells, single molecules, computer viruses (if they are truly SELF replicating). The zygote will ultimately become a being that will probably self-replicate, so it is a life. Sperm are not This is pretty extreme i know - most people have a far more 'warm and cuddly' view on what life is but i think self-replication is the one characteristic that has driven evolution over time to create complicated measures to define life by like respiration etc. Other measures are just too artificial for me, based on what we want to be alive rather than delegating to any actual reasoning.

    As to when morality applies, that is a far more fluid question and considers a lot more factors. For instance, most people seem to think 24 weeks is excessive. However, looking at stats like how the vast majority of abortions between 20-24 weeks are due to severe abnormalities or in rape victims it is perhaps harder to lower the limit. It depends so much on the circumstances - i mean, its considered moral to kill fully grown adults under circumstances like war, and even kill innocents (obv that is not the intention but it is inevitably true). The 'limit' on when the moral negative of abortion outweighs the negative of whatever the circumstance clearly depends on the circumstance.

    I have to say the condition-less limit does seem a bit odd to me, but i would certainly consider the 'higher-end' reasons (baby will suffer with disability, babies welfare will be undermined as its a result of rape) would justify the 24 weeks for me, and even beyond to be frank in my view. Sometimes the suffering that will be caused is simply worth preventing even at high moral cost.

    So to answer your question, there is no absolute point at which morals suddenly start applying - its a gradual thing. But then - who cares what i think. If most people want it reduced to 20 weeks then i will be in the minority and it should be 20 weeks!

    EDIT: and just to add, surely there are religious teachings on this topic that you should defer to as a religious person? Why do you choose not to - are they conflicted?
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    (Original post by Manesh2468)
    when your brain stops functioning your heart does aswell slowly, if your heart stops beating first e.g. it is ripped out of you, then your brain is deprived of oxygen and so you die. The heart beating is what pumps blood around your body, if the heart did not beat WHILE IT WAS INSIDE YOU then blood would not be pumped around your body, reaching the brain and so youd die.....
    You still seem to be justifying your decision of the heart only by referring to when the brain 'dies'. Final question (promise ) - so someone who is being kept 'alive' (as in, has normal brain activity, is breathing) by an artificial blood pump but has no heart is dead, yes?
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    (Original post by nexttime)
    You still seem to be justifying your decision of the heart only by referring to when the brain 'dies'. Final question (promise ) - so someone who is being kept 'alive' (as in, has normal brain activity, is breathing) by an artificial blood pump but has no heart is dead, yes?
    no because the blood which is oxygenated is being pumped around the body. thats all i mean, you need the heart when living a normal life to pump blood around the body, when you are in a hospital enviroment and your heart is removed for whatever reason, and your on a machine, the machine is basicly doing the hearts job by pumping the blood so you are still alive.
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    It's a tough one. I used to think from birth, but now i've lived a bit I kinda think as soon as the fetus has a heart. Which is quite early on. I'm not one of those pro-lifers or anything but I think personally i'd see a fetus as alive and wouldn't be able to consider something like abortion. Hope your a-level goes well :-)
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    When you take your first breath of air.
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    (Original post by Manesh2468)
    I will also say that all the organs are necessary e.g. lungs which oxygenate the blood and send it back to the heart to be pumped around the body (double circulatory loop), yes they are all living organs which make the whole person "live".
    I understand what you mean about the heart beating being pointless, but are you really going to be able to put someone on support quick enough as soon as the heart stops beating when not in a hospital enviroment to prevent them from dieing? The heart creates a pulse rate, which machines dont and therefor whilst the person would be on the machine they would not have a pulse, however all there organs would be recieving oxygenated blood and so would be able to live.
    Ok - the timescale is short from when a heart stops beating (and i mean complete flatline, not just arrhythmia or ischemia) to when they become irrecoverably damaged yes. However, if the brain completely stopped working, the time is literally 0.
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    I believe at conception, i.e. when the sperm fertilises the egg.

    I'm not religious at all though - so not being influenced by religion at all
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    7 months or so.
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    I've always said that it's at fertilisation being religious and all, but if you think about it, I'd say life begins then even if I wasn't religious, as that zygote has different DNA to you, it's different to you, and it's dividing because it's cells are alive and telling it to divide, so I would say yeah that a life begins at fertilisation (Y)
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    (Original post by j.laurence)
    Does that mean masturbation is mass murder then?
 
 
 
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