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Diversity = Strife ? watch

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    http://foster.20megsfree.com/444.htm

    I posted this link to a review-article in another thread last night and was surprised that the books finding -- that the more diverse a population in terms of race, religion, ethnic background etc, the more likely it is that a state would suffer conflict -- was at all controversial.

    I would have thought it obvious, and in fact, if I didn't believe it I probably wouldn't have allowed myself to hold the political viewpoint I now do.

    What do you guys say?

    Of course, it's Yggdrasil who brought me down this road, he collected these snips from the Wall Street Journal over a twenty year period, but truly it never ends, there's new stories every day, and every few years the lid comes off another boiling tension which has simmered for years. (everybody OK with cooking metaphors?)

    Anyways, I think the question is pretty well a non-issue. "Diversity", supposedly a strength is obviously a bad bad idea and likely a fatal flaw. Read the link -or don't, the daily news tells the same story- just don't get bogged down in the fact that the reviewer uses the strange word "race". It's a puzzle for some, but he simply means race, or maybe race.


    ----------------------------------

    some...

    Chechnya/Russia
    1994-1996: separatist guerrilla warfare (lead by former president Dzokhar Dudayev) against Russian government troops.
    1990-TODAY: separatist guerilla warfare lead by the moderate former president Aslan Maskhadov and by guerilla leaders Samil Basayev and Emir Khattab against Russian troops and the pro-Soviet government of Alu Alkhanov.
    VICTIMS: About 250,000 Chechens have been killed from 1994 until the present, that is to say a quarter of the original population of the Caucasus republic. Thousands of civilians (at least 3,000 according to human rights organizations) have disappeared.


    Rwanda
    1990-1994: Tutsi fighters belonging to the Patriotic Front of Rwanda against the government of the Hutu majority.
    1994-TODAY: Interhamwe Hutu fighters and former soldiers of the Hutu government (all based in, and supported by, the Democratic Republic of Congo against the Tutsi minority government of the president Paul Kagame.
    1998 - TODAY: The Rwandan army in the Democratic Republic of the Congo (supporting the Congolese Tutsi rebels of the Democratic Republic of the Congo) against the Congolese army (and allied ethnic militias).
    VICTIMS:Almost a million dead in the massacre of the Tutsis (and Hutu moderates) at the hands of the Hutu government militia (Interahwame) in 1994; 200 thousand dead since the 1994 civil war.

    Nigeria
    1993-TODAY: in the northern and south-western part of the country, ethnic-religious war between Hausa Fulani (northern Muslims) and Yoruba Ibo (southern Christian, in power).
    1993-TODAY: in the region of the Niger's Delta, the state army, the police and the paramilitary forces (sponsored by the oil companies, Shell and Chevron) fight against the activists of the Movement for the Survival of the Ogoni People (Mosop) and the Ogoni community, in general, which protest against social and environmental damages caused by the oil exploitation of the Delta.
    VICTIMS: More than 5 thousands during the ethnic-religious armed conflicts; about 10 thousands in extra-judicial mass murders, executed by the governmental forces.

    Sudan
    1983 – TODAY: In the Southern regions (Bahrel-Ghazal, Northern Nile, Southern Kordofan and Equatoria, where Christian-animist black population live) separatists of the Sudan Popular Liberation Army (SPLA) – led by former mutiny Lieutenant Colonel John Garang and supported by the US, Eritrea, Ethiopia and Uganda against the government army (led by Arabic Muslims and led by General Omar Hassan al-Bashir since 1989). In the Northern regions guerrilla groups (Muslims of Arabic origin) allied with the National Democratic Alliance (NDA) are also fighting against the government.
    VICTIMS: Nearly 2 million

    Turkey/Kurds
    1984-2000: the conflict pits the separatist Kurd guerilla fighters of the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) against the armed forces of the Turkish government (maiuscolo) backed by the pro-Turk Kurdish fighters of the Democratic Party of Kurdistan (PDK).
    2002-today: after the arrest of PKK's leader Ocalan in 1999 the independentist Kurdish organization decided to disband. However, about a year ago, a group called Kongra Gel appeared on the scene claiming its political and militar legacy with PKK.
    VICTIMS: During twenty years of conflict about 40 thousands people died and thousands fled.

    Somalia
    1991-TODAY: conflicts between armed groups of various rival clans to obtain control of the territory (the northwestern region of Somaliland declared its independency in 1991, the north-eastern region of Puntland in 1998). In 1992 37 thousand UN soldiers, led by the States, intervened, but the impossibility of restoring order and the heavy losses forced them to withdraw in 1995.
    VICTIMS: Over 350 thousand

    India – Gujurat
    FROM 1947 TO TODAY: in the western State of Gujarat there have been religious clashes Hindi people supported by the Hindi nationalist party in power, the B.J P, and the muslim minority supported by Pakistan.
    CASUALTIES: about 2500 (largely muslims) in the last escalation of violences from February to November 2002.

    India – North eastern states
    '70s -TODAY: several independence movements are fighting against the government army (supported by the Burmese army), the police force and paramilitary groups (Black Panthers of Assam Commando, Tritura State Commando)in the north- eastern states (Assam, Nagaland, Tripura, Manipur, Mizoram). United Liberation Front of Assam (Ulfa), National Democratic Front of Bodoland (Ndfb), National Socialist Council of Nagaland (Nscn), National Liberation Front of Tripura (Nlft) and Mizo National Front (Mnf) guerrillas are just the main rebel groups and they are all supported by Bangladesh and Buthan maybe also by Pakistan. The Government army is supported by Myanmar and Bangladesh according to '95 and '97 sources.
    CASUALTIES: over 11 thousands deaths

    The Philippines
    1978- present day: separatist guerrillas of the Moro Islamic Liberation Front (****), the Mnlf most radical wing of the Mnlf, fight against a Christian government.
    1991-present day: Southern Sulu Archipelago, Islamic fundamentalists of the Abu Sayyaf Group (Asg), lately connected to Al Qaeda, fight against the government army, supported by the United States.
    1969- present day: Marxist guerrillas of the New People Army (Npa) fight against a Christian government.
    VICTIMS: Over 150,00 have died in conflicts at Mindanao and the Sulu Archipelago (Basilan and Jolo), plus 50,00 people evacuated.
    At least 2500 dead have died in armed fights against the Npa.

    Sri Lanka
    1983-TODAY: The Tamil separatist guerillas of Tigers for Liberation of Tamil Country (LTTE) against the government, run by the chingalese majority, initially supported by Indian army.
    VICTIMS: Over 60 thousand

    Israel
    1948, 1967 and 1973: Israeli army (supported by the USA) against the Arab countries (supported by the Soviet Union)
    1967-TODAY: Palestinian secular armed groups (Al-Fatah, Popular Palestinian Freedom Front-General Headquarters, etc.) and Islamic Integralist Movements (Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and - from 2000 - Al-Aqsa martyrs brigade) against the Israeli occupation army and against targets (both military and civilian) in Israel.
    VICTIMS: 100,000 dead during the three "Arab-Israeli wars" of 1948, 1967, and 1973. 1,500 dead - almost all Palestinian - during the "first Intifada" (1978-1992); 3,614 during the "second Intifada" (September 2002 - today) - of which 2,700 Palestinian and 851 Israeli.

    Spain
    1958-TODAY: separatist guerillas of ETA (movimento patria basca e libertà) against Spanish government
    VICTIMS: 800
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    No matter how many of these threads you post, I will not vote BNP.

    :eek:
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    See we could present the most convincing argument ever seen, with lots of facts, statistics etc. But a lot of people won't be convinced because we are 'evil Nazis'.
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    I think a diverse society is always going to bring strife, other races and cultures may tolerate each other for a while but there is always a simmering tension between groups. Every now and again there is an explosion of anger and, which backs up my point that a multi-cultural society doesnt work.
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    You know something I do pick up from these statistics. The Israeli/Palestinian conflict (not actual Arab/Israel wars), has killed far fewer people than the vast majority of those conflicts listed above (a list that doesn't include many other ethnic conflicts). And yet, that one conflict gets so much attention and so many people claim its the "root" of global problems.
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    (Original post by pinkfloyd)
    See we could present the most convincing argument ever seen, with lots of facts, statistics etc. But a lot of people won't be convinced because we are 'evil Nazis'.
    Basically.
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    (Original post by ArthurOliver)
    Somalia
    1991-TODAY: conflicts between armed groups of various rival clans to obtain control of the territory (the northwestern region of Somaliland declared its independency in 1991, the north-eastern region of Puntland in 1998). In 1992 37 thousand UN soldiers, led by the States, intervened, but the impossibility of restoring order and the heavy losses forced them to withdraw in 1995.
    VICTIMS: Over 350 thousand
    Ah, Somalia, that home of diversity. Why, I hear that there are some people there who aren't closely related to me!
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    (Original post by Kavanne)
    Basically.
    Shows how narrow minded you are.
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    Cain and Abel were brothers, remember.
    The problem is that you can decide that almost anything is a cause of conflict: the American civil War is the most bloody war the USA was involved in. It was fought between people of mainly English or Scottish descent. Add the various Russian, Chinese and other civil wars as examples and you could argue that it is similarity that inspires hatred. After all, the most bloody wars in history were- according to some- European civil wars. In fact, many of the cases above don't actually reflect much diversity, cultural, genetic or linguistic: one of the most murderous recent cases- Yugoslavia- involved people barely distinguishable from one another to an outsider and where even the identities they killed in the name of were often merely nominal or mixed.
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    (Original post by pinkfloyd)
    Shows how narrow minded you are.
    I'd rather be narrow minded and good, than open minded (in this respect) and a fascist.
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    Why who is a fascist?
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    (Original post by Weejimmie)
    Cain and Abel were brothers, remember.
    The problem is that you can decide that almost anything is a cause of conflict: the American civil War is the most bloody war the USA was involved in. It was fought between people of mainly English or Scottish descent. Add the various Russian, Chinese and other civil wars as examples and you could argue that it is similarity that inspires hatred. After all, the most bloody wars in history were- according to some- European civil wars. In fact, many of the cases above don't actually reflect much diversity, cultural, genetic or linguistic: one of the most murderous recent cases- Yugoslavia- involved people barely distinguishable from one another to an outsider and where even the identities they killed in the name of were often merely nominal or mixed.
    All of the cases above reflect diversity. I don't think there's a more instructive way to look at this than to see that outsiders in places like Northern Ireland, Spain, Yugoslavia, Somalia, wouldn't be able to tell the factions apart. I think our shock when people so similar fight so ferociously over seemingly trivial differences of heritage or culture shows that we instinctively assumme that greater differences in heritage and culture are more likely to provoke conflict.

    The question of whether a more united people can argue over other things is bogus. They do, but far less often.
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    Can I just stick my oar in to say that an insider cannot see the differences that are causing strife in Somalia?

    It's not about those people over there looking different, or speaking a different language, or having a different religion, or any of that kind of thing, it's political divisions mixed in with clan/family loyalties.
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    (Original post by ayaan)
    Can I just stick my oar in to say that an insider cannot see the differences that are causing strife in Somalia?

    It's not about those people over there looking different, or speaking a different language, or having a different religion, or any of that kind of thing, it's political divisions mixed in with clan/family loyalties.
    It sure is. Stripping it right back to the bone. What chance the much greater divisions in todays Britain won't provoke serious conflict?

    edit: I don't really want to debate this tbh, it's so freakin' obvious, I just want to see some of the arguments against the idea that these deeply felt, deeply divisive, social-identities don't increase the likelihood of conflict when the groups play sardines.
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    (Original post by Kavanne)
    I'd rather be narrow minded and good, than open minded (in this respect) and a fascist.
    You obviously know nothing about the BNP to call them "fascists".
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    (Original post by pinkfloyd)
    See we could present the most convincing argument ever seen, with lots of facts, statistics etc. But a lot of people won't be convinced because we are 'evil Nazis'.
    Well, if you ever presented a convincing argument with substantial, objective evidence, we'd have to take you seriously. You haven't, so we don't. You evil Nazi you.
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    (Original post by ArthurOliver)
    It sure is. Stripping it right back to the bone. What chance the much greater divisions in todays Britain won't provoke serious conflict?

    edit: I don't really want to debate this tbh, it's so freakin' obvious, I just want to see some of the arguments against the idea that these deeply felt, deeply divisive, social-identities don't increase the likelihood of conflict when the groups play sardines.
    How is it 'playing sardines' in Somalia though? Could you have picked a worse example?

    Unless you want the Welsh, the Scottish, The English and the Irish, and even any extended family who wants to to have their own country, it makes no sense.

    Even if there was a Briain with just ethnically English, Irish, Welsh, Scottish etc... it would be more diverse than Somalia.
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    (Original post by ayaan)
    How is it 'playing sardines' in Somalia though? Could you have picked a worse example?

    Unless you want the Welsh, the Scottish, The English and the Irish, and even any extended family who wants to to have their own country, it makes no sense.

    Even if there was a Briain with just ethnically English, Irish, Welsh, Scottish etc... it would be more diverse than Somalia.
    So Somalia is a particularly good example of how small the differences between communities need to be to provoke the most awful internecine bloodletting. Same religion, same appearance, same culture, just (relatively) marginally diverse lineages and local ties.

    Not for you A, others...http://www.civicwebs.com/cwvlib/afri...appendix_4.htm
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    (Original post by pinkfloyd)
    See we could present the most convincing argument ever seen, with lots of facts, statistics etc. But a lot of people won't be convinced because we are 'evil Nazis'.
    Don't leech off ArthurOliver. You're lucky this forum has him.
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    (Original post by ArthurOliver)
    So Somalia is a particularly good example of how small the differences between communities need to be to provoke the most awful internecine bloodletting. Same religion, same appearance, same culture, just (relatively) marginally diverse lineages and local ties
    So? If the differences are so small, surely that shows that however ethnically similar a nation is, it's no guarantee of stability.

    (Original post by ArthurOliver)
    Not for you A, others...http://www.civicwebs.com/cwvlib/afri...appendix_4.htm
    That's actually quite interesting, I don't really know all the details.

    They never have anything on my father's (and therefore my) clan, becausethey don't fit into that structure, I think descended from Arabic settlers 20-25 generations ago. I'll ask my dad.

    I might start reading the backlog of all your links now I'm almost on holiday.
 
 
 
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