Should Gays be allowed to adopt? Watch

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arranque
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#861
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#861
(Original post by corey)
Mill however did argue that human beings are 'perfectable' - so perhaps not entirely viewing them as stupid animals.
true, but Mill was not even a bona-fide (i hate the expression, im sorry) modern liberal.
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Mr_H
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#862
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#862
(Original post by corey)
Well. It has everything to do with adoption. As a libertarian, your sexuality to me is of no onasequence. However, we have an authoriatirian and generally conservative inclined public - which means that being 'gay' is treated as having something wrong with you - as evidence by the fact that someone you know actually got kicked out for being gay.

When we apply this to adoption, you actually put a child in that exact same line. Children are particularly suspectible to classify being 'gay' as werid/wrong/a diease etc and the children gay couples will adopt may well be subject (due to an intolerant society) to verbal and physical abuse. Is that something we should be willing to risk?
as i pointed out earlier, there is the same sort of idology towards other groups, such as ginger children... should we try to prevent ginger children from being born?
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SB
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#863
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#863
(Original post by arranque)
Mill is seen as a bridge between classical liberalism and the modern, more progressive thinkers. You might have read on liberty but that doesnt mean you have understood it or have a good grasp of its context within liberalism as whole. Modern liberals believe that people are 'stupid animals that should be left to it as far as possible?!' oh dear. If youre doing a module on political philosophy, then id be worried...
Ummm, I got an A. Good grasp? Oh no, of course not.
I'm not. Fortunately all people don't have such closed minded views of political ideologies as you do. Mill is the father of modern liberalism.
That more or less sums up the modern liberal approach. Mill believed that, whatever humans did, bad or good for them, they should be left to it. They make mistakes. It is not a utopian ideology.
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pedy1986
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#864
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#864
(Original post by Mr_Homosexual)
as i pointed out earlier, there is the same sort of idology towards other groups, such as ginger children... should we try to prevent ginger children from being born?
Well stopping ginger children being born is not something that can easily be stopped. Yes, I know we probably could but that opens up a whole range of other arguments that have to be weight up and therefore I don't consider it an analagous situation.

Your argument implies you accept that a problem would exist with children who were adopted by gay parents - so why won't you accept that we ban gay adoption?
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arranque
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#865
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#865
(Original post by Mr_Homosexual)
i can't help but notice that you seem to have, albeit skillfully, avoided the point that you still haven't provided ANY evidence all night...
im sorry, but some of the evidence which would be necessary to back up some of the things i have said is from newspapers/journals from several months ago. I will endeavour to find some from another source, if it would satisfy you.
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objectivism
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#866
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#866
(Original post by arranque)
Mill is seen as a bridge between classical liberalism and the modern, more progressive thinkers. You might have read on liberty but that doesnt mean you have understood it or have a good grasp of its context within liberalism as whole. Modern liberals believe that people are 'stupid animals that should be left to it as far as possible?!' oh dear. If youre doing a module on political philosophy, then id be worried...

Mill was pessmistic of human nature in that he feared a ****** of the majorty, furthermore he claimed that humans would exploit others if given the chance, thus he argued for regulation on gambling for example. But he was optimistic in the respect that he believed if given great freedom there would be positive effects as they would cause conflct and this is a central dynamic of society. He belived individuals would not just be lazy if given freedom but would embrace it and use it to do great things.
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arranque
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#867
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#867
(Original post by skevvybritt)
Ummm, I got an A. Good grasp? Oh no, of course not.
I'm not. Fortunately all people don't have such closed minded views of political ideologies as you do. Mill is the father of modern liberalism.
That more or less sums up the modern liberal approach. Mill believed that, whatever humans did, bad or good for them, they should be left to it. They make mistakes. It is not a utopian ideology.
Look, you are making reference to only one closed aspect of Mills writings here. Are you completely ignorant of his distinction between higher and lower pelasures, and the need for state action in order to reach a possible state of perfection for humankind? It may not be utopian, but it is certainly optimistic.
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Steerz
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#868
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#868
God help a ginger child adopted by a homosexual couple!
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arranque
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#869
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#869
(Original post by Steerz)
God help a ginger child adopted by a homosexual couple!
LMAO Indeed.
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Mr_H
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#870
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#870
(Original post by Steerz)
God help a ginger child adopted by a homosexual couple!
:rofl: too true
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arranque
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#871
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#871
(Original post by objectivism)
Mill was pessmistic of human nature in that he feared a ****** of the majorty, furthermore he claimed that humans would exploit others if given the chance, thus he argued for regulation on gambling for example. But he was optimistic in the respect that he believed if given great freedom there would be positive effects as they would cause conflct and this is a central dynamic of society. He belived individuals would not just be lazy if given freedom but would embrace it and use it to do great things.
yes, but how would you summarise mill's proposed solutions to the problems with human nature that you have raised?
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SB
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#872
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#872
(Original post by arranque)
Look, you are making reference to only one closed aspect of Mills writings here. Are you completely ignorant of his distinction between higher and lower pelasures, and the need for state action in order to reach a possible state of perfection for humankind? It may not be utopian, but it is certainly optimistic.
I make reference to the relevant bits. How is accepting a need for the state and viewing some pleasures as worth more than others optimistic?
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Mr_H
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#873
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#873
and once again... i feel the need to itterate that you are still managing to avoid giving us any real proof for your currently unsubstantiated claims... why not just try and shut us up by showing it, or not make the claims/admit that they could just be wrong....
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arranque
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#874
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#874
(Original post by skevvybritt)
I make reference to the relevant bits. How is accepting a need for the state and viewing some pleasures as worth more than others optimistic?
not just accepting the need for a state, but asserting that state ACTION is necessary in order to attempt to reach a state of perfection or at least near-perfection. In that respect, it shares some similarities with socialism. It is blatantly optimistic, in that it puts forward the idea that it is possible to hugely improve humankind and that people are to an extent shaped by external forces and not innate badness, as conservatives might argue. I do realise that this is juxtaposed with his belief in a high degree of personal freedom for individuals, and the belief that humans will abuse each other without any state at all.
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pedy1986
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#875
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#875
(Original post by skevvybritt)
I make reference to the relevant bits. How is accepting a need for the state and viewing some pleasures as worth more than others optimistic?
Mill believes that a protective democracy that ensures the operation of the widest realm of inidividual liberty and the consequent engagment within the political process will lead to the education and such of citizens that can build a better society.

If we look at the final chapter of On Liberty he states that if liberty does not bring about progress and happiness then we should move back to an authoritarian state. This argument implies (since he was arguing for liberty) that he thought liberty would bring about happiness and progress - an optimistic view of human nature, in part at least.
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arranque
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#876
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#876
(Original post by Mr_Homosexual)
and once again... i feel the need to itterate that you are still managing to avoid giving us any real proof for your currently unsubstantiated claims... why not just try and shut us up by showing it, or not make the claims/admit that they could just be wrong....
trying to shut up an assertive homosexual, and one who obviously enjoys takign part in debated connected with gay rights, is a futile task. Perhaps some of the sources from which i have taken statistics are misguided/have manipulated figures, but how will we ever know?
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SB
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#877
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#877
(Original post by arranque)
not just accepting the need for a state, but asserting that state ACTION is necessary in order to attempt to reach a state of perfection or at least near-perfection. In that respect, it shares some similarities with socialism. It is blatantly optimistic, in that it puts forward the idea that it is possible to hugely improve humankind and that people are to an extent shaped by external forces and not innate badness, as conservatives might argue. I do realise that this is juxtaposed with his belief in a high degree of personal freedom for individuals, and the belief that humans will abuse each other without any state at all.
So... how does this contradict your claim that people go into adoption for a status symbol? How, in refuting that claim, was I such a "wishy-washy liberal"? I think they compliment each other quite nicely :rolleyes:
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SB
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#878
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#878
(Original post by arranque)
trying to shut up an assertive homosexual, and one who obviously enjoys takign part in debated connected with gay rights, is a futile task. Perhaps some of the sources from which i have taken statistics are misguided/have manipulated figures, but how will we ever know?
Maybe if you'd just post them we could try and find out for ourselves? At least we could see if they actually existed...
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Mr_H
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#879
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#879
(Original post by arranque)
trying to shut up an assertive homosexual, and one who obviously enjoys takign part in debated connected with gay rights, is a futile task. Perhaps some of the sources from which i have taken statistics are misguided/have manipulated figures, but how will we ever know?
i don't know... considering the sources don't exist as far as we know, their relative credability is currently of little concern...

and apparently, the same can be said about assertive people with what can easily be described as downright biggoted views...
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arranque
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#880
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#880
(Original post by skevvybritt)
Maybe if you'd just post them we could try and find out for ourselves? At least we could see if they actually existed...
lol, i wasnt just going to enter into a debate having read absolutely nothing on the subject and then make up totally bizarre statistics from a spanish newspaper that i read in barcelona. I cannot post the source in this case, for obvious reasons. And if the vetting process is so rigorous, then why are local/national newspapers frequently filled with tales of abuse or negligence taking place within households that have adopted children, referring to those who have 'slipped through the net' of an admittedly zealous, bureaucratic social services system?
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