Will the UK ever reverse it's authoritarian gun laws?

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Selkarn
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-13405054

Another typical example of gun crime that's happening all the time with illegal weapons.

Newsflash: when handguns are illegal and people still use them, making other firearms even more illegal does nothing.

When are we going to get our liberty and freedom back from the authoritarians?

(estimates of up to 4M guns in the UK, although the article is dated: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...le-505487.html

and yet it's still illegal for a normal man or woman to buy a small handgun)

My favourite image created by the Jews for the Preservation of Firearm Ownership:

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Drunk Punx
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In a country where the burglar has more rights than the victim, it's pointless giving potential victims something to help defend themselves until the justice system gets given a healthy dose of common sense.
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Genocidal
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And then there would be more guns and more murders you idiot. There will always be illegal items no matter how much you try and crack down on it but it's best to have a small amount of it than a large amount of it, which you would get if it were legal.
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Ahras
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I'm sorry but I don't understand how legalising the purchase of firearms will make things any better?
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No Future
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I loves my gun

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipujWRYUjS4
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gingerrama
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You give an example of a crime committed with illegal weapons to back up your point that said weapons should be more readily available? I do not see the logic. And yes, laws are generally authoritarian.
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Barden
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**** off


Gun control is a good thing, most people in this country agree with this notion, thus guns are (generally) illegal - that is democracy.
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moonkatt
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generic TSR topic No. 37.
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member520746
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Mate you don't understand the situation with guns in this country if you think we are anywhere close to needing guns to defend ourselves. Even in the most gun-heavy areas the guns are crap, most of them are imported guns that fire blanks which they convert and they aren't powerful or accurate. Even the most sophisticated gangs will just have a few pool guns rather than having everybody carry a strap. That's only because they are difficult to come by. The US' gun politics is totally different, it's ingrained in the culture and difficult to remove. We aren't like that, we are safer for it and it would be stupid to try and import a US problem.
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HistoryRepeating
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(Original post by Selkarn)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-13405054

Another typical example of gun crime that's happening all the time with illegal weapons.

Newsflash: when handguns are illegal and people still use them, making other firearms even more illegal does nothing.

When are we going to get our liberty and freedom back from the authoritarians?

(estimates of up to 4M guns in the UK, although the article is dated: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...le-505487.html

and yet it's still illegal for a normal man or woman to buy a small handgun)

I've heard legalising guns makes guncrime much less common. :rolleyes:
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Jordenfruitbat
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(Original post by Selkarn)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-13405054

Another typical example of gun crime that's happening all the time with illegal weapons.

Newsflash: when handguns are illegal and people still use them, making other firearms even more illegal does nothing.

When are we going to get our liberty and freedom back from the authoritarians?

(estimates of up to 4M guns in the UK, although the article is dated: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...le-505487.html

and yet it's still illegal for a normal man or woman to buy a small handgun)
People might still shoot each other with guns being illegal, but if you leaglise owning them there will be more murders and gun crime would increase dramatically, why would it make anything better? Just because people are allowed to own a gun legally doesn't mean they wouldn't use it to shoot each other with? We don't need guns to protect ourselves end of.
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gingerrama
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(Original post by HistoryRepeating)
I've heard legalising guns makes guncrime much less common. :rolleyes:
It's pretty much the same thing with drugs; if we legalise them, everyone will stop using them. Right?

Anyway OP, compare gun crime rates in the US and in Britain. QED
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username350927
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hopefully eventually government will stop treating us like kids
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Selkarn
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(Original post by Jordenfruitbat)
We don't need guns to protect ourselves end of.
Who said anything about protection?




I fight for liberalism, I fight for freedom, I fight for liberty, and I fight for choice some of you authoritarians belong back in 1930s Germany, I know there are lots of unheard voices out there who are against you though.
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Jordenfruitbat
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(Original post by Selkarn)
Who said anything about protection?




I fight for liberalism, I fight for freedom, I fight for liberty, and I fight for choice some of you authoritarians belong back in 1930s Germany, I know there are lots of unheard voices out there who are against you though.
Well isn't that what you see the gun as a point for? Why do we need them? The truth is we don't. It's not about having a choice of owning one no one particulary needs one and they are dangerous and cause crime, so why should they be legalised?
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gingerrama
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(Original post by Selkarn)
Who said anything about protection?




I fight for liberalism, I fight for freedom, I fight for liberty, and I fight for choice some of you authoritarians belong back in 1930s Germany, I know there are lots of unheard voices out there who are against you though.
So you fight for any weirdo on the street to have the liberty, freedom and choice to easily buy a gun and use it for whatever he wants then? I feel like I should remind you that they're not banned, their sale is just heavily restricted. Like I said in my previous post, compare US gun crime rates to that of the UK.
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Selkarn
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(Original post by Jordenfruitbat)
Well isn't that what you see the gun as a point for? Why do we need them? The truth is we don't. It's not about having a choice of owning one no one particulary needs one and they are dangerous and cause crime, so why should they be legalised?
There are literally hundreds of unique reasons why someone, from all walks of life, may want to own a gun. A quick google search gave me this, 76 reasons to own a handgun:

The simple act of having a gun is its own best use. Like a battleship parked off the coast its mere presence changes the dynamic of the situation without having to fire a single shot. By having a gun you become too dangerous to your predators. Criminals interviewed in jail say they don’t want anything to do with an armed civilian. That change in my human predators is exactly what I want to accomplish.
A right exercised is a right retained.
It's the best single tool for protecting your life and the lives of your loved ones. (JFPO)
You detest American gun laws based on 1938 Nazi weapons laws. (JFPO)
Armed societies are polite societies. (Switzerland).
Switzerland is armed to the teeth with virtually no crime (Stephen Holbrook).
Because of the patience and discipline you acquire while learning about the tool.
So you can de-bunk Hollywood gun myths for your kids.
So you’ll know that not using toy guns when playing is an important step in teaching kids to respect and handle the real thing safely and appropriately.
It removes force from the equation of human interaction.
Home Invasion Robberies. And your gun tool should be easy to get to (Since it will be in the holster you’re wearing).
"Robbery and assault victims who used a gun to resist were less likely to be attacked or to suffer an injury than those who used any other method of self-protection or those who did not resist at all." according to Professor of Criminology and Criminal Justice at Florida State University, Gary Kleck, in Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America.
We call the police because they have guns, not pens to document what already happened to us.
Cougars in the backyard – Happens all the time where we live.
Coyotes on the streets – My wife has seen five, this year. Only a danger if they’re in packs or for small children and dogs, alone.
Rattlesnakes in the hills – Signs all over the trails around here. Put snake shot in the first two chambers of your trail gun.
Police Budget Cuts – Sacramento County in CA will reduce the number of squad cars from 39 to 8 due to budget cuts (Channel 3, Sacramento, air date 6/30/2009).
Early Release of Violent criminals from overstuffed jails – Happens more than you think. Check your local news. There’s no more room left at the Inn.
Economic Meltdown. Was Argentina more or less safe when their currency collapsed? And don’t forget the other 30 countries whose currency has collapsed in the last 100 years. Happens all the time to those other countries we tend to ignore. It could never happen in the US, right?
Hurricane Katrina and the next natural disaster.
Better than a knife past 2 yards.
The only sure victim-prevention lies with the victim-to-be.
Police only document crimes after they happen. They might investigate. But, they have no legal responsibility to prevent crime.
Saying, "Police are not your bodyguard," is quite an understatement.
According to the Dalai Lama, "If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." (Seattle Times, May 15, 2001).
When seconds count, the police arrive in minutes (Or hours).
How many police does it take to give one speeding ticket to a dangerous soccer mom? Five! No punch line, here. It’s just how many I saw it take, last week. That’s five police not available for a real crime happening somewhere else.
The L. A. riots – For which the shotgun I had in the back seat on the way home from work was the right tool. We counted 22 plumes of smoke on each side of the freeway on the way home, that day. And the US troops on the streets for the next 3 days must have thought the M-16’s they were carrying were the right tool for the job, too. Now why would myself and those troops think it was useful to have a gun if neither of us actually fired? Because having a gun is its own best use. Guns are in full use even when they’re not being fired.
NYC Blackouts. I predict more blackouts as more cities and counties go bankrupt and don’t have the money to maintain their electricity grids.
The official role of police is to investigate, not prevent crime.
Self-defense is an inherent human right. It is given to you by God, not the government.
Since Criminals will always have guns, there’s no reasonable expectation of self-defense if law-abiding citizens don’t have them, too.
Meat on the table – Or do you only eat meat that other people kill for you?
1 in 4 chance of being on the receiving end of a violent crime (and that was before the economic meltdown).
Barack Obama, Eric Holder, Sonia Sotomayor. If you were impressed with Clinton’s torture of the word "IS" wait ’til you see what this bunch will do to the 27 words of the 2nd amendment. By the time they’re done they’ll have us believing the amendment has something to do with toaster ovens. Don’t laugh: I should have made each one of these people their own separate reason.
If history is any guide we should now expect increased "gun-control" (Victim Disarmament) laws passed under the guise of "protecting us." With the Government takeover of all banks, GM and Chrysler the US has now crossed over into the dictionary definition of fascism. Possession of firearms by private citizens threatens fascist governments that have always sought coercion and control.
Gun control laws increase violent crime as only law abiding citizens abide by the law. That makes "Gun Control" into effective "Victim Disarmament."
Last line of defense for family while traveling.
Clean-cut young men like Ted Bundy.
As a hobby to improve self-discipline and the understanding of physics.
To bring your physical preparation for resisting non-initiated force in line with your spiritual and intellectual efforts to avoid it.
The Virginia Tech Massacre – Cho killed 32 people and wounded another 17. Gun-Control (Read Victim Disarmament) has turned our schools into killing zones. Don’t those darn psychos know that guns are not allowed on campus? Actually, people like Cho do know and that’s why they choose school campuses for their shooting rampages.
School officials called the police when they heard Cho gunning people down at Virginia Tech. They called the police because they had guns that could stop Cho. Were guns the problem or the solution that day? The answer is that Cho was the problem and guns were the solution. If law abiding students were allowed to carry then their guns would have been the solution delivered long before so many innocent students were killed waiting for the police to arrive and "cordon off the area."
Camping among dangerous 4-legged creatures.
Camping among dangerous 2-legged creatures.
To equalize physical strengths in a confrontation.
Carrying a gun is a lighter burden than regret.
The Zodiac Killer. They never caught him. He claims 37 victims and is probably between 60 to 70 years old now, if alive. There’s an active website where you can submit tips.
If violent crime is not a factor then why do we still need police? (Boston T. Party)
You’re several more times likely, in your lifetime, to need a handgun to deal with a lethal threat than you are to need fire insurance on your home . . . yet more people carry fire insurance than carry a gun. (Boston T. Party)
Guns prevent an estimated 2.5 million crimes a year, or 6,849 per day. You don’t hear about them because they never happened, silly.
Violent offenders shy away from houses and people who are likely to be armed.
Your security is not your neighbors' responsibility.
Your security is not legally the police’s responsibility.
To increase criminal expectations that you may have a gun.
To bear your share of the responsibility and burden of the proven gun deterrence of crime.
Because criminals fear entering your House because of my gun. Get your own and spread the non-violence.
Because there are evil people in the world that can’t be talked or reeducated out of trying to kill you.
To convert force into persuasion.
To remove fear from human interaction.
A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly. (Marko Kloos).
The gun is the only weapon that’s as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weight lifter. (Marko Kloos)
To promote equality.
Every living creature has the natural right of self-defense.
There are people in this world to whom you’re not a human being. You are merely an obstacle to obtaining your possessions.
After you hand over the money, they’ll still kill you for being a witness.
YouTube videos of people being killed after they give up the money or open the safe.
As a communication device for someone who’d kill you to get the latest playstation or XBox or iphone.
Because every citizen in Switzerland has an automatic weapon in their basement and they have almost zero violent crime.
To appeal to the better nature of a man who doesn’t have one.
So that you can protect yourself against criminals who use guns as a deadly extension of their inability to deal with people.
Because there are people out there who would use a gun against you just to avoid the "hassles" of persuasion or the "inconvenience" of fair trade.
"According to the FBI, states with 'shall-issue' right-to-carry laws have a 26 percent lower total violent crime rate, a 20 percent lower homicide rate, a 39 percent lower robbery rate and a 22 percent lower aggravated assault rate than those states that do not allow their citizens to legally carry guns."
"The Bureau of Justice’s national average states that I have a 1-in-4 chance of being a victim of violent crime in my lifetime. The risk conferred by living in a major population center . . . . – where index felonies (rape, robbery, homicide, aggravated assault, etc.) number 200 a day – increases my chances of being a predator’s lunch stack to 1-in-9 annually." Mark F. Twight, "Eat or Be Eaten" S.W.A.T., March 2000 (p. 60)
Genocide frequently follows government disarmament of private citizens. The JFPO calls this type of government disarmament Death by Gun Control.
"Liberty or death," the meaning of which is clear and absolute, is but a trivial phrase if you do not carry a gun (Living with Glocks by Robert H. Boatman).
Put it this way:

"The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed the subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the supply of arms to the underdogs is a sine qua non for the overthrow of any sovereignty." -- Adolf Hitler (H.R. Trevor-Roper, Hitler's Table Talks 1941-1944)

Gandhi: "Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." -- Mahatma Gandhi (An Autobiography OR The story of my experiments with truth, by M.K. Gandhi, p.238)

Orwell: "That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -- George Orwell, the author of Animal Farm and 1984, himself a socialist

Even the frikin' Dalai Lama, to an extent:

"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." -- The Dalai Lama, (May 15, 2001, The Seattle Times) speaking at the "Educating Heart Summit" in Portland, Oregon, when asked by a girl how to react when a shooter takes aim at a classmate

"It is, of course, no coincidence that the right to have guns is one of the earlier freedoms outlined in U.S.A.'s Bill of Rights. Without guns in the hands of the people, all the other freedoms are easily negated by the State. If you disagree with that statement, ask yourself if the Nazis could have gassed millions of Jews, had the Jews been armed with rifles and pistols--there weren't enough SS troops to do the job. Lest we forget, in the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising of 1944, a couple of hundred Jews armed with rifles and homemade explosive devices held off two fully-equipped German divisions (actually about 8,000 men) for nearly two months.


Anyone who endorses gun control is endorsing a Nazi policy which allowed them to slaughter 6+ million Jews. *shakes head* authoritarians..
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Selkarn
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(Original post by gingerrama)
So you fight for any weirdo on the street to have the liberty, freedom and choice to easily buy a gun and use it for whatever he wants
Nope, not for whatever he wants. But I fight for his liberty, freedom and choice to buy e.g. a handgun if she or he so wants to.

I'm liberal and pro-freedom
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Fusilero
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(Original post by Selkarn)
Nope, not for whatever he wants. But I fight for his liberty, freedom and choice to buy e.g. a handgun if she or he so wants to.

I'm liberal and pro-freedom
Since you're a Liberal I hope you're also a fan of the democratic process. The majority of people in this country elect politicians who take a pro-gun control stance. There's no significant pressure to reverse the gun control law and public opinion swings towards gun control every time there's gun related violence. I agree with your principle but as long as we're a Liberal Democracy and the majority of the population are happy with gun control then gun control we shall have. That's not a bad thing, Liberal Democracies are good even when they sometime legislate in the opposite of your personal opinion. If they always legislated in line with your opinion then either A) You're a dictator or B) You're a sycophant.
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kingsholmmad
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(Original post by Selkarn)
Anyone who endorses gun control is endorsing a Nazi policy which allowed them to slaughter 6+ million Jews. *shakes head* authoritarians..
You know you don't believe that, you just want a bit of attention by trolling everybody else in this thread. Similarly, you know that, when it comes to unarmed civilians, there are more of them get hit by lightning each year in this country than die at the wrong end of a gun.

As far as the bad guys with guns go, they are mostly carrying them to use on other bad guys. That does raise the possibility of civilians getting caught in the crossfire but, when you think of how many more guns there are in America and the fact that most people there aren't carrying day-to-day, you're much more likely to die unarmed in the crossfire over there than you are here.
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