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Original post by n1r4v
Basically all you've said is that Ronaldo has poor ball control. Messi and Robben's ball control is better, certainly, especially considering they almost exclusively use one foot, yet saying Ronaldo's ball control is a "fallacy" is just embarrassing. He flourishes in open spaces, but his ball control at high speeds is still extremely impressive and I can't fathom how you think it's masked by stepovers. Do you think he boots and chases the ball or what? I cba searching for clips, but I direct you to last season's first game against Tenerife where he sprinted the whole length of the field with the ball at his feet, taking on about half their team along the way, or his dribbles against Almeria last year as well. I don't know how trustworthy the source is, but "Der Spiegel" said that he's the fastest player with the ball at his feet in the world. None of that really matters, it's obvious from when you watch him play that he has excellent ball control.


I think what he was saying is more or less true though, he has all the physical tools to do these things (although running at speeds is in itself a hard skill). But in terms of pure technique he is lacking in comparison to some of the players mentioned. Point is, he is definately not as skillfull as most people make him out to be, and should not even be held in the same breath as Messi when talking about any aspect of skill alone. He probably was just exaggerating a bit to add emphasis, but I agree with him more or less in what he has said. Cut off the space and Ronaldo is nowhere near as effective. Though dribbling isn't the only part of his game and he is still obviously a world class player.

P.S. How have you only had 2 posts and have 6 green gems lol ?
(edited 13 years ago)
Reply 21
Original post by dosvidaniya
I think what he was saying is more or less true though, he has all the physical tools to do these things (although running at speeds is in itself a hard skill). But in terms of pure technique he is lacking in comparison to some of the players mentioned. Point is, he is definately not as skillfull as most people make him out to be, and should not even be held in the same breath as Messi when talking about any aspect of skill alone. He probably was just exaggerating a bit to add emphasis, but I agree with him more or less in what he has said. Cut off the space and Ronaldo is nowhere near as effective. Though dribbling isn't the only part of his game and he is still obviously a world class player.


What do you mean he's not as skilful as people make him out to be?

What do you mean by pure technique? How can you say he's not technically gifted?

What's your definition of skill? Because Messi rarely uses any "skills" per se. Do you mean ability to beat a player? Dribbling ability? Because that's why I used the term 'ball control', because skill can refer to pretty much anything.
Reply 22
ive seen ronaldo in real life and he soooo fit!
Original post by n1r4v
What do you mean he's not as skilful as people make him out to be?

What do you mean by pure technique? How can you say he's not technically gifted?

What's your definition of skill? Because Messi rarely uses any "skills" per se. Do you mean ability to beat a player? Dribbling ability? Because that's why I used the term 'ball control', because skill can refer to pretty much anything.


Well I see skill as being able to take someone on under any circumstances (in terms of dribbling, which is what we were talking about). Something that Ronaldo is not as good at as previously mentioned players. Skill, imo is not about doing tricks, but about effectiveness in any situation. Now, Ronaldo is an effective dribbler but this is primarily (imo) because of his physical attributes. He is very good in terms of dribbling/technique/ball control, but his skill level is exaggerated.

Who said he wasn't technically gifted ? I know I didn't. In my view pure tenchnique is everything from being able to stop a ball dead in its tracks under the most difficult of situations (something which Zidane and Ronaldinho are gods at) to how well a player can keep a ball under his control, again, under tight spaces will it show a players true ability (his ball control/dribbling ability).

I've stated my definition of skill previously. And I basically mean it by how well the ball is under control by the player. Plus by saying he's not as good as people are making him out to be, I was specifically refering to they guy who said Ronaldo was more skillful than Messi. Albeit he was probably talking about tricks (which I suppose he is because Messi doesn't do them). But in my definition of skill/dribbling/ball control/technique or any which way you want to define a player with the ball under his feet (apart from tricks), I see Messi being vastly superior and quite a few other players being above him too.
(edited 13 years ago)
Reply 24
Original post by dosvidaniya
Well I see skill as being able to take someone on under any circumstances (in terms of dribbling, which is what we were talking about). Something that Ronaldo is not as good at as previously mentioned players. Skill, imo is not about doing tricks, but about effectiveness in any situation. Now, Ronaldo is an effective dribbler but this is primarily (imo) because of his physical attributes. He is very good in terms of dribbling/technique/ball control, but his skill level is exaggerated.

Who said he wasn't technically gifted ? I know I didn't. In my view pure tenchnique is everything from being able to stop a ball dead in its tracks under the most difficult of situations (something which Zidane and Ronaldinho are gods at) to how well a player can keep a ball under his control, again, under tight spaces will it show a players true ability (his ball control/dribbling ability).

I've stated my definition of skill previously. And I basically mean it by how well the ball is under control by the player. Plus by saying he's not as good as people are making him out to be, I was specifically refering to they guy who said Ronaldo was more skillful than Messi. Albeit he was probably talking about tricks (which I suppose he is because Messi doesn't do them). But in my definition of skill/dribbling/ball/control/technique or any which way you want to define a player with the ball under his feet (apart from tricks), I see Messi being vastly superior.


First you said that skill is "being able to take someone on under any circumstances" and then you say it's "how well the ball is under control by the player" which are two completely different things and underlies the whole of your argument. And then you say "He is very good in terms of dribbling/technique/ball control", yet you agreed with the guy I quoted (phil) who stated his ball control and dribbling is a "fallacy". Not sure what to say because the fundamentals of your post are fraught with contradictions.
(edited 13 years ago)
Reply 25

some of these players were at their peak in 2006.
Kaka, Ronaldinho, and even Henry. But Zidane stole the show.
He won everything, WC, CL/Europe, Euro '00, Italian and Spanish league titles.
Zidane = Best player of all time. Sorry but Messi needs a WC (without Xavi on his team) to prove otherwise.
Original post by Apex9
Faster? So what. Theo Walcott's faster than them both but I wouldn't rave about him.

Stronger? Ok given but Messi can definitely hold his own considering how many defenders try to hack at his legs.

Better in the air? True.

More skillful? Not true.

Better from set pieces? If Messi took as many freekicks as Ronaldo then this statement would have no truth. Just because he can hit the ball in a certain way doesn't imply he regularly hits the ball on target.

More goals? Again, true, yet the majority of Ronaldo's goals were inside the penalty area and against weak opposition. Plus, given how many chances he takes to score (his goal to chance ratio is awful) not so impressive.

He didn't score 42 in the premier league, his most was 31. Considering how Messi has performed against Man United and Arsenal that second statement is Andy Gray esque and completely absurd.

Messi does have a strong team around him, but as does Ronaldo.

-----


You've made some really good points.

some of these players were at their peak in 2006.
Kaka, Ronaldinho, and even Henry. But Zidane stole the show.
He won everything, WC, CL/Europe, Euro '00, Italian and Spanish league titles.
Zidane = Best player of all time. Sorry but Messi needs a WC (without Xavi on his team) to prove otherwise.


^ agreed.
Original post by n1r4v
First you said that skill is "being able to take someone on under any circumstances" and then you say it's "how well the ball is under control by the player" which are two completely different things and underlies the whole of your argument. And then you say "He is very good in terms of dribbling/technique/ball control" when you agreed with the guy I quoted who stated his ball control and dribbling is a "fallacy". The fundamentals of your post is fraught with contradictions.


I think skill can be used as quite a broad term and doesn't have to be exclusively one thing. I view skill as how effective someone can take someone on under any cirumstances as well as how well the ball is under control. Plus how effectively someone can keep the ball under tight circumstances is essentially the same as how well you can keep the ball under control. Both are more or less mutually exclusive.

"...when you agreed with the guy I quoted who stated his ball control and dribbling is a "fallacy". "

I never said I explicitly agreed with everything he said. But what I did say is that "I agree with him more or less" and that "He probably was just exaggerating a bit to add emphasis". My whole point was that Ronaldo is very good at the things mentioned but not as good as people make him out to be. Perhaps you should have re-read my posts ? Then again I could of been a bit clearer on a few things as well I suppose...
Reply 29
Iniesta >Messi

u mad?
Reply 30
Original post by dosvidaniya
I think skill can be used as quite a broad term and doesn't have to be exclusively one thing. I view skill as how effective someone can take someone on under any cirumstances as well as how well the ball is under control. Plus how effectively someone can keep the ball under tight circumstances is essentially the same as how well you can keep the ball under control. Both are more or less mutually exclusive.

"...when you agreed with the guy I quoted who stated his ball control and dribbling is a "fallacy". "

I never said I explicitly agreed with everything he said. But what I did say is that "I agree with him more or less" and that "He probably was just exaggerating a bit to add emphasis". My whole point was that Ronaldo is very good at the things mentioned but not as good as people make him out to be. Perhaps you should have re-read my posts ? Then again I could of been a bit clearer on a few things as well I suppose...


Mutually exclusive?!

Ronaldo is unstoppable when he's going at speed and his success rate at beating a man at speed is probably extremely high (and the fact he does it so frequently factors into it as well). It wouldn't be fair to compare his success rate to someone like Iniesta, who probably is more successful yet doesn't take people on nearly as much. In tighter spaces he's extremely effective as well provided he's at a high speed... but when he's stationary he's not that great at taking people on compared to Messi, I'll give you that. I'll wager that's to do with acceleration.
(edited 13 years ago)
Original post by blue_shift86
messi is god. Most down to earth, nicest guy ever! Ronaldo is a serial paris hilton shagging, diving cry-baby who holds his face and jumps onto the ground when ever someone touches him.


Don't think so mate, this is the same guy who didn't turn up to training because pep guardiola rested him in a match. The same guy who wouldn't celebrate winning the league with his team-mates because pep didn't play him in a match that didn't mean anything just so he couldn't increase his personal goal tally
Reply 32
Zidane would just headbutt Maradonna.

If anyone ever beats that exit to proffessional, global football... then Tony Blair should be made Pope.
Reply 33
You obviously dont know football if you think Maradonna was a better player than Zidane!
Just becuase you hear of Maradonna more does not make him a better player, watch them both on Youtube then come back and tell me that Maradonna was better! Zidane was the master!
Original post by n1r4v
Mutually exclusive?!

Ronaldo is unstoppable when he's going at speed and his success rate at beating a man at speed is probably extremely high (and the fact he does it so frequently factors into it as well). It wouldn't be fair to compare his success rate to someone like Iniesta, who probably is more successful yet doesn't take people on nearly as much. In tighter spaces he's extremely effective as well... but when he's stationary he's not that great at taking people on compared to Messi, I'll give you that.


Well, I think in order to be effective in tight spaces you need good ball control ? I admit I could of been clearer though.

I agree he is very good at full speed, but like I've said before, a great deal of this is because of his physical attributes, along with his very good (yet slightly overrated imo) ball control and what not. Plus I still maintain that the previous list of players, plus a few others, are better than Ronaldo in tight spaces (which is a much fairer basis to rate a players ability imo).
Reply 35
Original post by Jamiesonn
Don't think so mate, this is the same guy who didn't turn up to training because pep guardiola rested him in a match. The same guy who wouldn't celebrate winning the league with his team-mates because pep didn't play him in a match that didn't mean anything just so he couldn't increase his personal goal tally


Yep, I hate it when people go on about how much "nicer" he is. He doesn't go down as easily as Ronaldo and his lifestyle off the pitch isn't as publicised. That's it really, it's not hard to find him having tantrums, his handball goal, apparently spitting at someone etc.
(edited 13 years ago)
Reply 36
Original post by dosvidaniya
Well, I think in order to be effective in tight spaces you need good ball control ? I admit I could of been clearer though.

I agree he is very good at full speed, but like I've said before, a great deal of this is because of his physical attributes, along with his very good (yet slightly overrated imo) ball control and what not. Plus I still maintain that the previous list of players, plus a few others, are better than Ronaldo in tight spaces (which is a much fairer basis to rate a players ability imo).


Sorry mate but I don't really follow what you're saying.

He is effective when there are people around him in "tight spaces". He's just not particularly effective when he's stationary, but instead of dancing around the ball like a bell like he did at United, he usually just passes now. And seriously what's with this "ball control" is overrated? When he sprints with the ball, it's always close to his feet. No idea where that's coming from. His ball control is exceptional.
(edited 13 years ago)
Original post by Theconomist
For effectivness I'd have taken Zidan.In a perfect world the ideal team would be:

Kahn

Dani Alves Beckenbauer Baresi Maldini



Zidan Xavi

Zico Maradona

Messi Puskas

Subs: C.Ronaldo,Cantona,Thuram,Buffon,Ronaldinho(the 2004-2006 version)



I immediately disregarded your opinion as soon as I saw Dani Alves in there.
Original post by n1r4v
Yep, I hate it when people go on about how much "nicer" he is, completely unfounded. He doesn't go down as easily as Ronaldo and his lifestyle off the pitch isn't as publicised. That's it really, it's not hard to find him having tantrums, his handball goal, apparently spitting at someone etc.


Messi is not an angel. To add to the list of things you've mentioned, there was his kicking the ball at the Madrid crowd and the CL semi-final, and him going down in the 5-0 win after Ramos barely touched him.

But that doesn't mean he's not 'nicer'. I do think he's less egocentric than Ronaldo, this is clearly just from a watching him twice a week perspective, but with Ronaldo you always get the impression that it's not a game for him unless he scores. Now, this of course is not a bad thing; sportsmen should always aim to strive for the highest possbile standards and Ronaldo wouldn't be the player he is without that drive-but, equally, you couldn't argue that it isn't sometimes maladaptive for his team. The best example is the CL final of 2009, in which one could tell that Ronaldo was obsessed with the Messi v Ronaldo build-up; he took a ridiculous number of shots in the first few minutes, and then faded badly. Also, if one compares the amount of times Ronaldo throws his hands up in the air in frustration when a pass fails to reach him/is overhit etc to the times Messi does so, he does seem less self-involved once he steps on the pitch.

Of course, I don't know; it's just an impression.
Reply 39
Original post by KingMessi
Messi is not an angel. To add to the list of things you've mentioned, there was his kicking the ball at the Madrid crowd and the CL semi-final, and him going down in the 5-0 win after Ramos barely touched him.

But that doesn't mean he's not 'nicer'. I do think he's less egocentric than Ronaldo, this is clearly just from a watching him twice a week perspective, but with Ronaldo you always get the impression that it's not a game for him unless he scores. Now, this of course is not a bad thing; sportsmen should always aim to strive for the highest possbile standards and Ronaldo wouldn't be the player he is without that drive-but, equally, you couldn't argue that it isn't sometimes maladaptive for his team. The best example is the CL final of 2009, in which one could tell that Ronaldo was obsessed with the Messi v Ronaldo build-up; he took a ridiculous number of shots in the first few minutes, and then faded badly. Also, if one compares the amount of times Ronaldo throws his hands up in the air in frustration when a pass fails to reach him/is overhit etc to the times Messi does so, he does seem less self-involved once he steps on the pitch.

Of course, I don't know; it's just an impression.


Personality wise I mean. On the pitch it's obvious Messi plays for the team more. And he doesn't go down because he knows he's good enough to continue. That combined means he definitely makes a better impression on the pitch and why he's deemed to be more moral.