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Reply 20
llama boy
Well, that's their problem, isn't it?
I'm against doing 6th formers the disservice of pretending all degrees are equal, but aside from that issue, what exactly is the problem with all degrees not being equal?
Surely it has always been the case, a degree from Oxford or LSE has always been more valuable than from institution X, however far you go back?
I'm against doing 6th formers the disservice of pretending all degrees are equal, but aside from that issue, what exactly is the problem with all degrees not being equal?
Surely it has always been the case, a degree from Oxford or LSE has always been more valuable than from institution X, however far you go back?
That would probably be because Oxford and Cambridge are the oldest and therefore most established. Same reason why Eton, Winchester and Stonyhurst are well respected compared to your bog standard comp.
Joey_Johns
That would probably be because Oxford and Cambridge are the oldest and therefore most established. Same reason why Eton, Winchester and Stonyhurst are well respected compared to your bog standard comp.
The point is that there has always been a hierarchy which stretches much further than that.
Mark_KK
What is also worrying is the seeming inability of some students to identify one from the other, I know of people who have gone on a "three-year piss-up certificate" then wondered why no-one wants to offer them a decent job when they graduate.
I am also worried at the burden they place on the taxpayer.
I am also worried at the burden they place on the taxpayer.
Yes - I recently visited my old school where there were posters advertising this and that course at such-and-such institution. They are basically forcing people into applying to university, but not advising them of what they can do after that (they don't tell people that their degree choices are useless - I'm not sure if that's allowed). As long as they get pupils packed off to some institution, they're happy - sod the fact that they could be sending their pupils down a futile path paved with debt and unemployment. It's not a small debt, either.
Ben
llama boy
Yes. For various reasons though (ie the polys, HNDs etc), this isn't a staggering increase.
Exactly my point!
Should we artificially be increasing the number of people at "uni" (note my use of the term) by offering "degrees" at converted polys etc...just to satisfy Government figures.
Ben.S.
Yes - I recently visited my old school where there were posters advertising this and that course at such-and-such institution. They are basically forcing people into applying to university, but not advising them of what they can do after that (they don't tell people that their degree choices are useless - I'm not sure if that's allowed). As long as they get pupils packed off to some institution, they're happy - sod the fact that they could be sending their pupils down a futile path paved with debt and unemployment. It's not a small debt, either.
Ben
Ben
When I first applied to university I applied for various subjects relating to sociology. Luckily (although I did not know this at the time) I did not go in the end. I am now reapplying both older and wiser for a different subject now fully aware that my initial subject choices would have not greatly enhanced my career prospects.
Reply 27
Mark_KK
I know of people who have gone on a "three-year piss-up certificate" then wondered why no-one wants to offer them a decent job when they graduate.
I know people who have gone on a respected degree at a respected university (Geology at Southampton to be exact - a science based degree at a russell group uni), got firsts and then wondered why no-one wants to offer them a job when they graduate.
Getting a job on graduation while to some extent subject and uni are important what is far more important is the willingness to work hard and be a good employee. Anyone graduating from any degree thinking that the business world owes them a job is deluding themselves.
And I've said it before and I'll say it again - why should my colleagues who I studied alongside of who decided (unconciously) on graduation not to take any job that they considered "beneath them" and are now unemployable (3 yrs unemployed and still expecting someone to hand them a job on a plate) be funded through university over people like my sister who got a pass (between a 3rd and a fail) from Wolverhampton Uni (an ex poly) on a languages course who actually learnt a hell of a lot that cannot be examined while studying and is now in a graduate level job in a job market that is notoriously hard to break into (she's an in house IT trainer).
Yes her degree is worth less on paper than the BSc from Soton - but with any education you only get out of it what you put in.
Tell me which of these graduates is wasting tax payers money and which did not deserve the opportunities they were presented with at 18: The one who got what they could out of their degree and didn't stop working hard or the one who did what it took to get a good degree and then expected the world to bend down and lick their arse?
Pencil Queen
I know people who have gone on a respected degree at a respected university (Geology at Southampton to be exact - a science based degree at a russell group uni), got firsts and then wondered why no-one wants to offer them a job when they graduate.
Getting a job on graduation while to some extent subject and uni are important what is far more important is the willingness to work hard and be a good employee. Anyone graduating from any degree thinking that the business world owes them a job is deluding themselves.
And I've said it before and I'll say it again - why should my colleagues who I studied alongside of who decided (unconciously) on graduation not to take any job that they considered "beneath them" and are now unemployable (3 yrs unemployed and still expecting someone to hand them a job on a plate) be funded through university over people like my sister who got a pass (between a 3rd and a fail) from Wolverhampton Uni (an ex poly) on a languages course who actually learnt a hell of a lot that cannot be examined while studying and is now in a graduate level job in a job market that is notoriously hard to break into (she's an in house IT trainer).
Yes her degree is worth less on paper than the BSc from Soton - but with any education you only get out of it what you put in.
Tell me which of these graduates is wasting tax payers money and which did not deserve the opportunities they were presented with at 18: The one who got what they could out of their degree and didn't stop working hard or the one who did what it took to get a good degree and then expected the world to bend down and lick their arse?
Getting a job on graduation while to some extent subject and uni are important what is far more important is the willingness to work hard and be a good employee. Anyone graduating from any degree thinking that the business world owes them a job is deluding themselves.
And I've said it before and I'll say it again - why should my colleagues who I studied alongside of who decided (unconciously) on graduation not to take any job that they considered "beneath them" and are now unemployable (3 yrs unemployed and still expecting someone to hand them a job on a plate) be funded through university over people like my sister who got a pass (between a 3rd and a fail) from Wolverhampton Uni (an ex poly) on a languages course who actually learnt a hell of a lot that cannot be examined while studying and is now in a graduate level job in a job market that is notoriously hard to break into (she's an in house IT trainer).
Yes her degree is worth less on paper than the BSc from Soton - but with any education you only get out of it what you put in.
Tell me which of these graduates is wasting tax payers money and which did not deserve the opportunities they were presented with at 18: The one who got what they could out of their degree and didn't stop working hard or the one who did what it took to get a good degree and then expected the world to bend down and lick their arse?
I dont think we can examine individual cases as there will always be exceptions to the rule. I am talking about the Governments overall strategy.
Reply 30
Mark_KK
I dont think we can examine individual cases as there will always be exceptions to the rule. I am talking about the Governments overall strategy.
Have you read the governments overall strategy?
(It's here if you haven't http://www.dfes.gov.uk/highereducation/hestrategy/expand.shtml )
There have been tiny increases in student numbers since 1997 and numbers have been held static in degree courses for the last 2 yrs and will remain static in degree courses for the next 10 yrs, the main spurt in student numbers was between 1992 and 1997 when the tories (gawd luv em) rearranged the HE sector without putting constraints in place to control student numbers. A lot of universities (and admittedly a lot of ex-polys) expanded student numbers without full funding (technically on a fees only basis - so they got around £1000 from the students LEA for each yr of study, whether they were studying english or medicine). This is the reason HE is in such a funding crisis today - becuase 10 yrs ago the conservatives incentivised universities to expand places with less money.
Reply 31
madmazda86
Anyone tried the Stamford test on the UCAS website? I got something like 100 suggested areas of study that they thought I should look at! There's just toooo much to specialise in.
Yeah ive done this test it gave me courses from agriculture to law and medison to accountacy
Not a great deal of help norrowing things down....
PQ, you mention someone taking a degree in Geology and coming out and having nothing to do, is this not such a highly specialised area that there is such a small job market relating to it?
I know people that have gone and done all sorts of sciency degrees that look great on paper but dont really offer you much in the way of employment.
I know people that have gone and done all sorts of sciency degrees that look great on paper but dont really offer you much in the way of employment.
First four points of this governemnt policy page:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
National economic imperatives support our target to increase participation in higher education towards 50 per cent of those aged 18–30 by the end of the decade. Participation in England is already 43 per cent.
• The bulk of the expansion will come through new types of qualification, tailored to the needs of students and of the economy. Our emphasis will be on the expansion of two-year work-focused foundation degrees, as they become the primary work-focused higher education qualification.
• We will support employers to develop more foundation degrees focusing on the skills they really need; we will encourage students to take them by offering financial incentives for them; and we will fund additional places for foundation degrees rather than traditional three-year honours degrees.
• Foundation degrees will often be delivered in Further Education colleges, and we will build and strengthen the links between further and higher education, to give students clearer progression pathways and support the development of work-based degrees. As part of this, we will streamline the funding regimes to make collaboration easier.
-----------------------------------
Reading between the lines I wonder what we can all make of this?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
National economic imperatives support our target to increase participation in higher education towards 50 per cent of those aged 18–30 by the end of the decade. Participation in England is already 43 per cent.
• The bulk of the expansion will come through new types of qualification, tailored to the needs of students and of the economy. Our emphasis will be on the expansion of two-year work-focused foundation degrees, as they become the primary work-focused higher education qualification.
• We will support employers to develop more foundation degrees focusing on the skills they really need; we will encourage students to take them by offering financial incentives for them; and we will fund additional places for foundation degrees rather than traditional three-year honours degrees.
• Foundation degrees will often be delivered in Further Education colleges, and we will build and strengthen the links between further and higher education, to give students clearer progression pathways and support the development of work-based degrees. As part of this, we will streamline the funding regimes to make collaboration easier.
-----------------------------------
Reading between the lines I wonder what we can all make of this?
ZJuwelH
Damn this stupid government, why call these vocational courses degrees? Why put them all in the same category and devalue every one? Degrees are supposed to be academic, so these vocational things just demean the basic meaning of a degree. Why not call them diplomas or something?
They put them in the same category as degrees due to the fact that previosuly people viewed them as a joke.
Rather than try and change peoples perception of these courses they decided to put them into the degree category and thus undermine that instead.
Reply 36
It is all too vague, there was somebody from my uni who studied Media Technology and is now working for Microsoft as a programmer earning a fortune. This course is considered to be lesser than the course I am doing.
Maggie the person studying a foundation degree in Child Care at TVU may bot be good enough to get a graduate level job but if it improves her confidence it will improve her work no matter what job she does.
I don't think there are too many people graduating but I do think there is too many people entering uni and then dropping out. Some universities drop out figures are almost 40%!
I don't care about competion any longer, I know I am doing a good degree and will get a good grade. I know I have has much chance as getting the job as anybody else even though they may be from better universities or what ever. Also people on multimedia courses at Chester or Bolton are probably not likely to be any threat to me unless they are very good as a person.
For this reason I don't think the degeee has been dumbed down because employees know there is a difference between a TVU and an Oxford one. But at the end of the day the person makes a difference far may than any peice of paper.
Maggie the person studying a foundation degree in Child Care at TVU may bot be good enough to get a graduate level job but if it improves her confidence it will improve her work no matter what job she does.
I don't think there are too many people graduating but I do think there is too many people entering uni and then dropping out. Some universities drop out figures are almost 40%!
I don't care about competion any longer, I know I am doing a good degree and will get a good grade. I know I have has much chance as getting the job as anybody else even though they may be from better universities or what ever. Also people on multimedia courses at Chester or Bolton are probably not likely to be any threat to me unless they are very good as a person.
For this reason I don't think the degeee has been dumbed down because employees know there is a difference between a TVU and an Oxford one. But at the end of the day the person makes a difference far may than any peice of paper.
Reply 37
Mark_KK
PQ, you mention someone taking a degree in Geology and coming out and having nothing to do, is this not such a highly specialised area that there is such a small job market relating to it?
I know people that have gone and done all sorts of sciency degrees that look great on paper but dont really offer you much in the way of employment.
I know people that have gone and done all sorts of sciency degrees that look great on paper but dont really offer you much in the way of employment.
Well looking at my favourite website (Times' Good University Guide
) the graduate level employment rate for Geology from Southampton is at 70% - ie 6 months after graduation 70% of graduates were in graduate level jobs (ironically not including me - I was temping at the time - it took me 9 months to land my graduate level job). Even Geology graduates from places like Portsmouth (which comes bottom in the geology subject league table) has a graduate employment level of 60%.70% is the same as the employment rate for English graduates from UCL, Durham, Warwick and KCL or Economics graduates from York or Edinburgh or History graduates from Durham.
The market for geology related jobs is small, but pretty much sustainable. The only requirement for entry being a willingness to travel (the reason I ruled it out immediately) and being willing to work your way up from the bottom (starting salaries are around the £18k mark but shoot up to a healthy £30-40k after 5 yrs experience).
If you enter any job market with unrealistic expectations you'll do poorly, that's why I decided long before graduation that my future wouldn't lie in geology (I'd decided to settle on the south coast and most geology jobs involve a substantial amount of world travel). I wouldn't be able to do my current job without my degree (even aside from the fact that universities are pathetically focussed on qualification levels when recruiting admin staff) the ability to analyse large quantities of data and present it concisely and simply was the main part of my dissertation (aside from the stuff about clays
) and then there's the skill involved in researching and combining different ideas into a single concept...these are of course skills it's possible to develop as part of most numerical degrees (I also have the valuable skill of being capable of talking about clay for well over half an hour and boring the pants of anyone willing to listen). Plus I literally know my university/employer inside out.As for the government devaluing degrees how does rebranding HNDs as FDs devalue a BA or BSc? It doesn't it simply gives HNDs the potential to be recognised for the valuable qualification that they are.
Reply 39
ZJuwelH
I don't like the way it allows Joe or Jane Average to say he or she has a degree and put it on a par with a "proper" academic degree.
But someone with a foundation degree can't claim to have a bachelors degree, they can only put FDA or FDSc after their name not BA or BSc.
What alternative would you suggest for someone who has studied the equivalent of the first 2 yrs of a 3 yr bachelors course?
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