Headscarves in schools - recent update

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Jamie
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#1
Report Thread starter 17 years ago
#1
I just saw the following article
"French PM defends headscarf ban


Protests against the ban have been held around the world
The French prime minister has defended proposals to ban the wearing of "overt" religious symbols in schools, as he opened the debate in parliament.
Scores of MPs have asked to speak on the controversial bill.

Jean-Pierre Raffarin said the law was necessary because the wearing of Muslim headscarves in school had taken on a political dimension.

The bill, which has led to Muslim protests, would also ban large crosses and skullcaps in state schools.

The law, which polls suggest is backed by most French people, would take effect from the beginning of the new school year in September.

In the French Republic, religion cannot, must not be a political project

Jean-Pierre Raffarin
French Prime Minister

AFP news agency also reported that Mr Raffarin has suggested extending similar measures to French public hospitals.

He said "legislative measures" would be put forward to protect the principle of secularity because "in these sectors also the fundamental principles need to be recalled".

President Jacques Chirac recommended such measures when he gave his full backing to the proposals for schools in December.

He said it was necessary to preserve the national principle of secularity - separating religion and state. In hospitals, he said, "nothing can justify that a patient should, as a matter of principle, refuse treatment by a doctor of the opposite sex".


High profile

Mr Raffarin's opening speech in the National Assembly on Tuesday was seen as a sign of just how important the government considers the legislation.

In remarks broadcast on French television, he told MPs: "We have to note that some religious symbols, and among them the Islamic headscarf, are increasing in number in our schools.

Jennifer, Moscow, Russia


Send us your comments
"De facto they are taking on political significance and can no longer be regarded exclusively as personal signs of religious belonging."

Some 140 members of the 577-seat lower house are reported to have signed up to speak - which is said to be an unusually high number.

Three days have been scheduled for the debate and a vote is set for next Tuesday.

The BBC's Caroline Wyatt, in Paris, says the proposed law has been criticised as clumsy and unclear while there are also fears that it could prove divisive - forcing Muslim girls into separate schools.

She said there had been overwhelming support for the proposals in the debate so far, except from the Green Party which said it would be bad for the cohesion of France as a whole.

Protests against the suggested ban have been held around France and at French missions around the world.

Some Muslims agree with the ban. but others say wearing the headscarf should be allowed under religious freedom.

A ban could also affect men choosing to grow beards - if they do so for religious reasons.

Strict Muslims say the headscarf, or hijab, is necessary to protect women's modesty in keeping with the teachings of the Quran, while Sikhs insist their turbans are central to their cultural identity as well as their religion. "

Now I've never been for this bill, since it goes against Jews, Muslims and sikhs (but, coincidently i feel, christians don't require any overt symbols as part of their religion).
But the idea that they may even go to the lengths of firing religious doctors is just plain stupidity. These are highly trained professionals who have worked for a long time along side other religions.
Are they mad!?!
J
PS I's like to see what happened if they tried it here
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Dickie
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#2
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i can understand the ban in schools, but hospitals? thats ridiculous.
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Xenon
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#3
(Original post by Dickie)
i can understand the ban in schools, but hospitals? thats ridiculous.
They can't just take away someone's job cos of their religion. It's their loss if they lose these doctors.
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MadNatSci
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#4
(Original post by foolfarian)
In hospitals, he said, "nothing can justify that a patient should, as a matter of principle, refuse treatment by a doctor of the opposite sex".

Oh, my God.
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curryADD
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(Original post by foolfarian)
I just saw the following article
"French PM defends headscarf ban


Protests against the ban have been held around the world
The French prime minister has defended proposals to ban the wearing of "overt" religious symbols in schools, as he opened the debate in parliament.
Scores of MPs have asked to speak on the controversial bill.

Jean-Pierre Raffarin said the law was necessary because the wearing of Muslim headscarves in school had taken on a political dimension.

The bill, which has led to Muslim protests, would also ban large crosses and skullcaps in state schools.

The law, which polls suggest is backed by most French people, would take effect from the beginning of the new school year in September.

In the French Republic, religion cannot, must not be a political project

Jean-Pierre Raffarin
French Prime Minister

AFP news agency also reported that Mr Raffarin has suggested extending similar measures to French public hospitals.

He said "legislative measures" would be put forward to protect the principle of secularity because "in these sectors also the fundamental principles need to be recalled".

President Jacques Chirac recommended such measures when he gave his full backing to the proposals for schools in December.

He said it was necessary to preserve the national principle of secularity - separating religion and state. In hospitals, he said, "nothing can justify that a patient should, as a matter of principle, refuse treatment by a doctor of the opposite sex".


High profile

Mr Raffarin's opening speech in the National Assembly on Tuesday was seen as a sign of just how important the government considers the legislation.

In remarks broadcast on French television, he told MPs: "We have to note that some religious symbols, and among them the Islamic headscarf, are increasing in number in our schools.

Jennifer, Moscow, Russia


Send us your comments
"De facto they are taking on political significance and can no longer be regarded exclusively as personal signs of religious belonging."

Some 140 members of the 577-seat lower house are reported to have signed up to speak - which is said to be an unusually high number.

Three days have been scheduled for the debate and a vote is set for next Tuesday.

The BBC's Caroline Wyatt, in Paris, says the proposed law has been criticised as clumsy and unclear while there are also fears that it could prove divisive - forcing Muslim girls into separate schools.

She said there had been overwhelming support for the proposals in the debate so far, except from the Green Party which said it would be bad for the cohesion of France as a whole.

Protests against the suggested ban have been held around France and at French missions around the world.

Some Muslims agree with the ban. but others say wearing the headscarf should be allowed under religious freedom.

A ban could also affect men choosing to grow beards - if they do so for religious reasons.

Strict Muslims say the headscarf, or hijab, is necessary to protect women's modesty in keeping with the teachings of the Quran, while Sikhs insist their turbans are central to their cultural identity as well as their religion. "

Now I've never been for this bill, since it goes against Jews, Muslims and sikhs (but, coincidently i feel, christians don't require any overt symbols as part of their religion).
But the idea that they may even go to the lengths of firing religious doctors is just plain stupidity. These are highly trained professionals who have worked for a long time along side other religions.
Are they mad!?!
J
PS I's like to see what happened if they tried it here
that, is ridiculous...religous freedom means you CAN wear that stuff.
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jammyd
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The French Government were a bit silly about this. They announced the new policy but had a rather large Christmas tree outside the Elysees Palace.
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Bigcnee
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The French Government is seriously infringing on basic human rights.
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Jamie
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#8
(Original post by Bigcnee)
The French Government is seriously infringing on basic human rights.
indeed. but being continental pr$cks it's a case of one rule for them and a different for everyone else. Its frankly amazing. they push the whole federal europre idea but walk all over any rule that the EU tries to impose.
Ie keeping the beef export way longer than other countries. the headscarves. the budget deficit
J
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Tnacilppa
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I actually totally agree with the French on this.

The point being made about hospitals is that female patients should not be allowed to refuse help from male doctors (and visa versa). I love how one person says they're gonna fire religious doctors and everyone else jumps on the bandwagon!

Overt religious symbols are an unnecessary political statements. I think the world would be a better place without religion to be honest. It should be a personal and private thing. What is the purpose of these symbols? I would say they are there to make people aware of your religion. Why create this extra divide in society?

If I was French I would be backing Chirac on this one.

Adam
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Vienna
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(Original post by Bigcnee)
The French Government is seriously infringing on basic human rights.
or defending their constitution?
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Vienna
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(Original post by jammyd)
The French Government were a bit silly about this. They announced the new policy but had a rather large Christmas tree outside the Elysees Palace.
they are not banning 'religion' or its celebration.
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EI_123
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I don't agree with the French government, I think that nothing should be banned.
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Nicci_babe
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you ant take away people religious rights to believe what ever they choise muslims, jews etc wear head dresses in the same way most british christians wear a crusifix on their necklace should we be taking away kids neclaces in schools aswell
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Vienna
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(Original post by foolfarian)
The BBC's Caroline Wyatt, in Paris, says the proposed law has been criticised as clumsy and unclear while there are also fears that it could prove divisive - forcing Muslim girls into separate schools.
a concern yes. although where these schools will receive funding from and the quality of education they will provide leaves alot to the imagination.

Some Muslims agree with the ban. but others say wearing the headscarf should be allowed under religious freedom.
which is protected by the French constitution, which is contradictory.

A ban could also affect men choosing to grow beards - if they do so for religious reasons.

Strict Muslims say the headscarf, or hijab, is necessary to protect women's modesty in keeping with the teachings of the Quran, while Sikhs insist their turbans are central to their cultural identity as well as their religion. "
tough, not if you are representing the public services.

Now I've never been for this bill, since it goes against Jews, Muslims and sikhs (but, coincidently i feel, christians don't require any overt symbols as part of their religion).
a large proportion of France is catholic and they will be as effected by this as any other religious group.

But the idea that they may even go to the lengths of firing religious doctors is just plain stupidity. These are highly trained professionals who have worked for a long time along side other religions.
Are they mad!?!
J
PS I's like to see what happened if they tried it here
preference based on religious beliefs should not be tolerated on the public health system. it may be stupidity, but its principle. Raffarin just got rid of one public holiday, saying that the French needed to work more, but now introduces two more as part of this legislation.
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Vienna
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(Original post by Eternal Idol)
I don't agree with the French government, I think that nothing should be banned.
and you would be on the road to anarchy...
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MattG
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http://mail2.factsoft.de/pipermail/n...er/021703.html

if you fancy some reading on the subject
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Vienna
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(Original post by Nicci_babe)
you ant take away people religious rights to believe what ever they choise muslims, jews etc wear head dresses in the same way most british christians wear a crusifix on their necklace should we be taking away kids neclaces in schools aswell
a small necklace is not an overt symbol. a large crucifix worn outside of clothing will be banned.
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EI_123
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(Original post by vienna95)
and you would be on the road to anarchy...
That wouldn't be a bad option at all but Fraternité, égalité, liberté should mean something to french government.
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Tnacilppa
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(Original post by Nicci_babe)
you ant take away people religious rights to believe what ever they choise muslims, jews etc wear head dresses in the same way most british christians wear a crusifix on their necklace should we be taking away kids neclaces in schools aswell
I don't think anyone is suggesting we take away people's right to have a faith - merely the overt symbols of their faith. If someone wants to wear a necklace with a cross on it this is hardly overt. Neither is a small copy of the Koran in one's pocket.

Religion is given too dominant a position in our society, it soaks up the blame for too many politically misguided decisions, it prejudices groups of people against other groups of people. Organised religion is a bad thing - therefore overt symbols of organised religion are bad things. They are entirely unnecessary. Faith should be personal - not overt.

Adam
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jammyd
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(Original post by vienna95)
they are not banning 'religion' or its celebration.
But France is supposed to be a secular state. How can this be possible with a Christmas tree?
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