Headscarves in schools - recent update

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Tnacilppa
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#21
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#21
(Original post by jammyd)
But France is supposed to be a secular state. How can this be possible with a Christmas tree?
Where in the bible (or any other Christian teaching) is there a Christmas tree?

If you actually research it, the tree has a secular (pagan) background.

Adam
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Bigcnee
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#22
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#22
(Original post by Tnacilppa)
I actually totally agree with the French on this.

The point being made about hospitals is that female patients should not be allowed to refuse help from male doctors (and visa versa). I love how one person says they're gonna fire religious doctors and everyone else jumps on the bandwagon!

Overt religious symbols are an unnecessary political statements. I think the world would be a better place without religion to be honest. It should be a personal and private thing. What is the purpose of these symbols? I would say they are there to make people aware of your religion. Why create this extra divide in society?

If I was French I would be backing Chirac on this one.

Adam
Irrelevant. They infringe on the basic Human right of "freedom of religion". What your personal view on religion is; doesn't matter.
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Bigcnee
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#23
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#23
(Original post by vienna95)
or defending their constitution?
Couldn't care less about the constitution. I care about freedom of speech and expression - something you proclaim as basic whenever it suits you.
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Bigcnee
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#24
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#24
(Original post by vienna95)
and you would be on the road to anarchy...
Sensationalist at best.
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Vienna
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#25
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#25
(Original post by jammyd)
But France is supposed to be a secular state. How can this be possible with a Christmas tree?
being secular does not mean religion cannot exist.
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Bigcnee
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#26
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#26
(Original post by Tnacilppa)
Where in the bible (or any other Christian teaching) is there a Christmas tree?

If you actually research it, the tree has a secular (pagan) background.

Adam
It was originally used by Christians.
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Vienna
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#27
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#27
(Original post by Bigcnee)
Couldn't care less about the constitution. I care about freedom of speech and expression - something you proclaim as basic whenever it suits you.
freedom of speech and expression is provided for and maintained by a democratic constitution.
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Bigcnee
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#28
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#28
(Original post by vienna95)
freedom of speech and expression is provided for and maintained by a democratic constitution.
Not the French one, clearly.

Even if it is, what the French govt. are doing goes against freedom of speech.
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Tnacilppa
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#29
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#29
(Original post by Bigcnee)
It was originally used by Christians.
No actually I think if you actually bothered to find out about it you'd realise you're being stupid. Since when is a pine tree a Christian symbol? Next you'll be saying that the May Poll is a Christian symbol!

Adam
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Bigcnee
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#30
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#30
(Original post by Tnacilppa)
No actually I think if you actually bothered to find out about it you'd realise you're being stupid. Since when is a pine tree a Christian symbol? Next you'll be saying that the May Poll is a Christian symbol!

Adam
Ok then sparky....

The fir tree has a long association with Christianity, it began in Germany almost a 1000 years ago when St Boniface, who converted the German people to Christianity, was said to have come across a group of pagans worshipping an oak tree. In anger, St Boniface is said to have cut down the oak tree and to his amazement a young fir tree sprung up from the roots of the oak tree. St Boniface took this as a sign of the Christian faith. But it was not until the 16th century that fir trees were brought indoors at Christmas time.
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Bigcnee
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#31
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#31
(Original post by Tnacilppa)
No actually I think if you actually bothered to find out about it you'd realise you're being stupid. Since when is a pine tree a Christian symbol? Next you'll be saying that the May Poll is a Christian symbol!

Adam
Realised you were wrong?
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Vienna
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#32
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#32
(Original post by Bigcnee)
Not the French one, clearly.

Even if it is, what the French govt. are doing goes against freedom of speech.
French citizens are free to express their religious beliefs, but not when they conflict with the secularity of French public service. the concept of secularity is not new. the demands of Islam in a secular Christian heritage, European society is.
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Vienna
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#33
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#33
(Original post by Bigcnee)
Sensationalist at best.
a society free of law and order is a better one? complete freedom is not a first step toward a culture of anarchy?
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Elle
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#34
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#34
Whatever happened to understanding and tolerance? Besides political ideologies are just as influencing (or perhaps more) than religion. Next they will be a ban on any form of opinion or expression.
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Bigcnee
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#35
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#35
(Original post by vienna95)
French citizens are free to express their religious beliefs, but not when they conflict with the secularity of French public service. the concept of secularity is not new. the demands of Islam in a secular Christian heritage, European society is.
Neither is Freedom of religion.
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Bigcnee
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#36
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#36
(Original post by vienna95)
a society free of law and order is a better one? complete freedom is not a first step toward a culture of anarchy?
I don't understand how allowing Muslims to wear headscarves is a recipe for anarchy. The suggestion is sensationalist.
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Howard
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#37
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#37
(Original post by vienna95)
French citizens are free to express their religious beliefs, but not when they conflict with the secularity of French public service. the concept of secularity is not new. the demands of Islam in a secular Christian heritage, European society is.
Well, for what it's worth I think they should be banned as I personally do not think religious expression should have any place in schools. Period.

However, the European Convention on Human Rights 1950 (it's been ammended since but not significantly) ratified by the French government has this to say;

ARTICLE 9

1.Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.

Which leads me to wonder; wearing a headscarf is surely a manifestation of one's religion/belief.......in.......observance wouldn't you say?

2.Freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

Would democratic society grind to a halt, would public safety be at risk, would public order collapse, would health problems ensue, or morals decline if the French government DIDN'T seek to ban headscarves? I rather think not.

The moral of this story? When you ratify an agreement in 1950 you might have due regard for the demografic make-up of society 50 years thereon. But, as politicians rarely look beyond their own administrative term it's hardly surprizing that 50 years remains an incomprehensible length of time to most of them.
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Bigcnee
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#38
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#38
Good post.

Are you american?
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Howard
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#39
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#39
(Original post by Bigcnee)
Good post.

Are you american?
No. A Brit, but happily residing in Florida!
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Bigcnee
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#40
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#40
(Original post by Howard)
No. A Brit, but happily residing in Florida!
ok. i just wondered why you wrote:

"surprizing"
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