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Headscarves in schools - recent update
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DoctorNO
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#121
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#121
(Original post by Xenon)
Howe exactly would a teacher wearing a scarf distract you?
Howe exactly would a teacher wearing a scarf distract you?
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kildare
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#122
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#122
(Original post by DoctorNO)
As you can see many posters here are against religion in general. not just islam. These posters along with religious (another religion) are offended by the fact that some people purposely wear religious symbols to promote their religion.
As you can see many posters here are against religion in general. not just islam. These posters along with religious (another religion) are offended by the fact that some people purposely wear religious symbols to promote their religion.
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claire1985
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#123
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#123
(Original post by kildare)
Democracy is based on the principle that the majority should choose the governement, however the governement must also respect the fundamental rights of all its citizens. Even without the European Charter of the Human Rights (one of the most commendable things about the E.U in my opinion) I would say it's likely that the proposed bill would violate French law vis-a-vis freedom of relgion and/or expression.
Democracy is based on the principle that the majority should choose the governement, however the governement must also respect the fundamental rights of all its citizens. Even without the European Charter of the Human Rights (one of the most commendable things about the E.U in my opinion) I would say it's likely that the proposed bill would violate French law vis-a-vis freedom of relgion and/or expression.
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Howard
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#124
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#124
(Original post by kildare)
Democracy respects the will of the people- not just the will of the majority. Hence why in France the proposed law cannot/should not be passed as it contravenes the European Charter of Human Rights, of which France are a signatory.
Democracy respects the will of the people- not just the will of the majority. Hence why in France the proposed law cannot/should not be passed as it contravenes the European Charter of Human Rights, of which France are a signatory.
Contravening the European Charter of Human Rights?
Human rights law in Europe comes from the European Convention on Human Rights 1950 as ammended. Being a signatory to it means sweet ****-all actually and has as much legal significance as signing Kyoto.
Britain signed this hunk of **** back in 1953 (I think it was) but it wasn't until it was finally embodied into law through the Human Rights Act 1998 that it mean't very much.
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kildare
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#125
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#125
(Original post by claire1985)
In a muslim state, banning the veil is a pretty stupid thing to do, as it will affect the majority of people and will be grossly unpopular. However, it must be noted that France is not a muslim state, it is Roman Catholic, and therefore the banning of headscarves and other religious articles will not affect people as much. As Iran is an inherently religious country, religious laws will obviously have more of an effect than in a country such as France, which is less religiously motivated.
In a muslim state, banning the veil is a pretty stupid thing to do, as it will affect the majority of people and will be grossly unpopular. However, it must be noted that France is not a muslim state, it is Roman Catholic, and therefore the banning of headscarves and other religious articles will not affect people as much. As Iran is an inherently religious country, religious laws will obviously have more of an effect than in a country such as France, which is less religiously motivated.
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claire1985
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#126
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#126
(Original post by kildare)
France is not a Roman Catholic State it is a secular state and most French people are very proud of that fact. I feel that restricting individual freedom of expression/relgion is a very strange thing for a country which prides itself and liberity and unity to do.
France is not a Roman Catholic State it is a secular state and most French people are very proud of that fact. I feel that restricting individual freedom of expression/relgion is a very strange thing for a country which prides itself and liberity and unity to do.
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kildare
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#127
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#127
(Original post by claire1985)
Maybe so, but i still think democracy means the will of the people, what the majority want should be carried. More problems are caused when popular changes aren't made, for example Iraq in the UK, this was unpopular and will resonate badly on ol' Tony in the future.
Maybe so, but i still think democracy means the will of the people, what the majority want should be carried. More problems are caused when popular changes aren't made, for example Iraq in the UK, this was unpopular and will resonate badly on ol' Tony in the future.
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Howard
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#128
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#128
(Original post by kildare)
Ironically enough, one of the reasons why Iran finds itself in the posistion it does is due to the vastly unpopular laws passed by the Shah, one of which being the banning of the veil...
Ironically enough, one of the reasons why Iran finds itself in the posistion it does is due to the vastly unpopular laws passed by the Shah, one of which being the banning of the veil...
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Bigcnee
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#129
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#129
(Original post by claire1985)
I agree with you totally, religion is the root of all 'evil'.
I agree with you totally, religion is the root of all 'evil'.
If you mean that the idea of evil came from religion, then you are right. If you mean what you literally said - then you are talking utter shite.
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Howard
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#130
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#130
(Original post by kildare)
Democracy is based on the principle that the majority should choose the governement, however the governement must also respect the fundamental rights of all its citizens. Even without the European Charter of the Human Rights (one of the most commendable things about the E.U in my opinion) I would say it's likely that the proposed bill would violate French law vis-a-vis freedom of relgion and/or expression.
Democracy is based on the principle that the majority should choose the governement, however the governement must also respect the fundamental rights of all its citizens. Even without the European Charter of the Human Rights (one of the most commendable things about the E.U in my opinion) I would say it's likely that the proposed bill would violate French law vis-a-vis freedom of relgion and/or expression.
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claire1985
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#131
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#131
(Original post by kildare)
If the majority decided that they wanted the governement to sanction the killing of the other 49% would that be ok? I apologise for the trivial example but the point stands any democratic country MUST respect the wishes of a sizeable minority (within reason) and their own constitution/any other legal system which they are party to.
If the majority decided that they wanted the governement to sanction the killing of the other 49% would that be ok? I apologise for the trivial example but the point stands any democratic country MUST respect the wishes of a sizeable minority (within reason) and their own constitution/any other legal system which they are party to.
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kildare
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#132
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#132
(Original post by Howard)
Absolute crap. Democracy, generally represents the will of the majority as well you know.
Contravening the European Charter of Human Rights?
Human rights law in Europe comes from the European Convention on Human Rights 1950 as ammended. Being a signatory to it means sweet ****-all actually and has as much legal significance as signing Kyoto.
Britain signed this hunk of **** back in 1953 (I think it was) but it wasn't until it was finally embodied into law through the Human Rights Act 1998 that it mean't very much.
Absolute crap. Democracy, generally represents the will of the majority as well you know.
Contravening the European Charter of Human Rights?
Human rights law in Europe comes from the European Convention on Human Rights 1950 as ammended. Being a signatory to it means sweet ****-all actually and has as much legal significance as signing Kyoto.
Britain signed this hunk of **** back in 1953 (I think it was) but it wasn't until it was finally embodied into law through the Human Rights Act 1998 that it mean't very much.
n. pl. de·moc·ra·cies
1. Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.
2. A political or social unit that has such a government.
3.The common people, considered as the primary source of political power.
4. Majority rule.
5. The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community
Refer especially to points 3 and 5.
Yes, democracy does mean that the majority choose the governement, it does not mean however that the minority forfeit their rights.
As regards the vagaries of national/international law (although I thought you had already argued that the law did contravene European law, I may be wrong though but yes anyway...) I must profess ignorance and as such will only try to argue that the law infringes on basic rights and on the principles that the Republic was founded on.
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Bigcnee
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#133
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#133
(Original post by claire1985)
I take your point but i think there are laws about majority rulings, i.e. the majority have to have more than 51% of votes. Opinion polls in France are 65-70% for the ban, i think this is a good majority that can put a motion through.
I take your point but i think there are laws about majority rulings, i.e. the majority have to have more than 51% of votes. Opinion polls in France are 65-70% for the ban, i think this is a good majority that can put a motion through.
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kildare
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#134
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#134
(Original post by Howard)
Well, then change the ****in law then. Or are the ******s that run the country unable to operate the levers of government? **** me.....the Shah got booted out 20 something years ago man!
Well, then change the ****in law then. Or are the ******s that run the country unable to operate the levers of government? **** me.....the Shah got booted out 20 something years ago man!
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kildare
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#135
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#135
(Original post by Howard)
Yes, it would. It would violate the constitution as I pointed out earlier.
Yes, it would. It would violate the constitution as I pointed out earlier.
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claire1985
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#136
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#136
(Original post by Bigcnee)
If you mean that the idea of evil came from religion, then you are right. If you mean what you literally said - then you are talking utter shite.
If you mean that the idea of evil came from religion, then you are right. If you mean what you literally said - then you are talking utter shite.
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kildare
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#137
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#137
(Original post by claire1985)
I take your point but i think there are laws about majority rulings, i.e. the majority have to have more than 51% of votes. Opinion polls in France are 65-70% for the ban, i think this is a good majority that can put a motion through.
I take your point but i think there are laws about majority rulings, i.e. the majority have to have more than 51% of votes. Opinion polls in France are 65-70% for the ban, i think this is a good majority that can put a motion through.
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DoctorNO
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#138
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#138
(Original post by kildare)
No, they wear 'religious symbols' because it is part of their faith, not because they seek to 'promote their religon'.
No, they wear 'religious symbols' because it is part of their faith, not because they seek to 'promote their religon'.
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kildare
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#139
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#139
(Original post by claire1985)
I was saying the idea of evil came from religion, hence the inverted commas. If you define evil by the laws we have in place, these laws come from the basis of the 10 commandments ( in Muslim states they come from Muhammed's teachings), therefore anything that is 'evil' from the basis of these laws, is evil by definition from religion, thus-religion is the root of all 'evil'-it coined the phrase, so to speak.
I was saying the idea of evil came from religion, hence the inverted commas. If you define evil by the laws we have in place, these laws come from the basis of the 10 commandments ( in Muslim states they come from Muhammed's teachings), therefore anything that is 'evil' from the basis of these laws, is evil by definition from religion, thus-religion is the root of all 'evil'-it coined the phrase, so to speak.
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claire1985
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#140
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#140
(Original post by Bigcnee)
Basic human rights overrule democracy.
Basic human rights overrule democracy.
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