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material breach
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#21
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#21
(Original post by zizero)
About 'potential rights' - I don't understand why a foetus's status as a potential human being gives him human rights (which is as one of the main arguments against abortion). He is not a full human being yet and hence he should not be treated as such.

Prince Charles is a potential King, yet no-one would dream of giving him therefore regal rights. Similarly, a foetus is a potential human being, which does not mean he should have human rights.
you misunderstand, potential rights is my way of trying to say they have more rights than plants and animals but not those of a full human being, and thus i think abortion should be legal up untill a point however definiting that point is very difficult
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Mr White
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#22
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#22
(Original post by Speciez99)
you misunderstand, potential rights is my way of trying to say they have more rights than plants and animals but not those of a full human being, and thus i think abortion should be legal up untill a point however definiting that point is very difficult
The point at which it is capable of independant existence would be a good estimate.
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Cate
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#23
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#23
(Original post by Speciez99)
i think abortion should be legal up untill a point however definiting that point is very difficult
Couldn't agree more.
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*Riz*
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#24
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#24
(Original post by Mr White)
The point at which it is capable of independant existence would be a good estimate.
Which is round about 24 weeks - the legal limit for abortion I think. After that point even though the "baby" is still in the womb it is possible that it could survive if born prematurley at that stage. But what about if abortion took place after 23 weeks and 6 days? There is always such a problem with "drawing lines".
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material breach
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#25
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#25
(Original post by Mr White)
The point at which it is capable of independant existence would be a good estimate.
thats changing from day to day with medical research and also where you are in the world (ie the medical faclities) so it seems to have a ever changing day when its alright for the foetus to terminated surely?
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zizero
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#26
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#26
(Original post by Speciez99)
you misunderstand, potential rights is my way of trying to say they have more rights than plants and animals but not those of a full human being, and thus i think abortion should be legal up untill a point however definiting that point is very difficult
Why should an early-stage foetus have more rights than an animal like say - a horse.

A horse is a more sophisticated and more developed being. Importantly, the horse's nervous system is much more developed than the foetus', hence the horse can "feel" much better and can potentially suffer much more.

So, what is it, that gives this "bunch of cells" a superior status to the horse, which is a superior being?
The fact that the "buch of cells" happen to belong to the kind of the homo sapiens is not really a justification: Why should we be selective on the sole basis of a being's belonging to a certain race? Is that not the same as for instance banning black people to use buses, just because they are black?

The reason humans have more rights than animals is that they are superior beings. Yet, foetuses are inferior to many animals, and hence they do not qualify for more rights than those animals.
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Howard
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#27
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#27
(Original post by Speciez99)
the cases where i have seen abortion morally justified are:

women who have been raped
where the foetus's contiuned exsistance will kill the mother
and where the women did not want the child and used contraception to prevent it but was let down by it

however im not sure if anyone can justify abortion where it is through lack of care that the women got pregnant
does anyone know how much an abortion costs todays since if its so expensive this seems a arguement against the fact women just casually have one.
Well, however expensive an abortion maybe it must surely be cheaper than raising a child for 20 odd years.
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Mr White
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#28
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#28
(Original post by Speciez99)
thats changing from day to day with medical research and also where you are in the world (ie the medical faclities) so it seems to have a ever changing day when its alright for the foetus to terminated surely?
Well, not really. The moment at which it is capable of sustaining its own existence without the need to be physically attached to another human being is the point at which it becomes an individual, and not just a part of the mother's body.
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loftx
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#29
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#29
(Original post by Speciez99)
Abortion: what do you think of it? should it illegal? do you think it is right that people can now get them in the lunch time? at what point does the baby get its "life"? at conception or some other time? and has anyone had an abortion?

answers to any of these questions would intrest me immediately
(no religious views please)
In my opinion its all about where you draw the line. Mr white made an interesting comment about pre-emptive murder which got the point across well.

A simple yes or no answer is never going to be right for every situation. Though I would say I am for abortion because I think people deserve a second chance if things go wrong.

I would say anyone should be allowed an abortion up to the point where it becomes less traumatic for everyone involved than not.

Also is abortion such a big issue - a huge number of living, feeling human beings die every day from hunger, lack of medical care, war etc - arn't these people more important than an unborn child?
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zizero
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#30
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#30
(Original post by Speciez99)
thats changing from day to day with medical research and also where you are in the world (ie the medical faclities) so it seems to have a ever changing day when its alright for the foetus to terminated surely?
Exactly. Suppose an American woman is pregnant. For some reason, she travels to Burkina Faso, where she is when the foetus in her womb is 24 weeks old. In Burkina Faso, the foetus is not capable of independent survival, even though in the US medical facilities available to that woman would make it possible for the foetus to survive independently.
So, does the foetus lose it's right to life, just because it happens to be in the wrong place?
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material breach
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#31
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#31
(Original post by Mr White)
well, not really. The moment at which it is capable of sustaining its own existence without the need to be physically attached to another human being is the point at which it becomes an individual, and not just a part of the mother's body.
if you take the other extreme then is a person who is in a coma who relies on a computer controlled artifically lungs/heart/kidneys ect still alive then, despite the fact that they are capable of aknowledging their rights and can be in a vegative state for ages?
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pedy1986
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#32
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#32
(Original post by Speciez99)
you misunderstand, potential rights is my way of trying to say they have more rights than plants and animals but not those of a full human being, and thus i think abortion should be legal up untill a point however definiting that point is very difficult
Is that consistent? What you are saying is...given these circumstances then abortion is morally OK, but given other circumstances it is not OK.

Surely, the action must be viewed independant of circumstances, the action is what is under question and that does not alter with circumstances it is still 'an abortion'. So, you are saying that is it right and wrong at the same time - not consistent.
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txt_eva
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#33
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#33
Personally if you are male you have no right to decide on abortion. And I stand by that statement, men can, will and do just walk away from a child, a woman does not have that option.
Some people say put the child up for adoption, WHY? So many child need adopting, why have more?
I can see that now there's the morning after pill etc to help prevent against a child etc but in reality sometimes its just too late for that.
What sort of a life will a child have if it is unwanted, surely it is better to prevent a life of no love or even abuse by abortion.
Even from the human right point of view... what rgiht does anyone have to tell me I cannot have an abortion if I so wish?

Eva
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Mr White
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#34
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#34
(Original post by Speciez99)
if you take the other extreme then is a person who is in a coma who relies on a computer controlled artifically lungs/heart/kidneys ect still alive then, despite the fact that they are capable of aknowledging their rights and can be in a vegative state for ages?
Capable of sentient thought, therefore is automatically an individual.
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Cate
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#35
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#35
(Original post by txt_eva)
Even from the human right point of view... what rgiht does anyone have to tell me I cannot have an abortion if I so wish?

Eva
So is it alright if I murder a random person just because I so wish?
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pedy1986
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#36
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#36
(Original post by txt_eva)
Even from the human right point of view... what rgiht does anyone have to tell me I cannot have an abortion if I so wish?
But the removal or your right to choose is justified because you are removing someones right to life - a much more important right.
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material breach
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#37
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#37
(Original post by Howard)
Well, however expensive an abortion maybe it must surely be cheaper than raising a child for 20 odd years.
agreed
(Original post by corey)
Is that consistent? What you are saying is...given these circumstances then abortion is morally OK, but given other circumstances it is not OK.

Surely, the action must be viewed independant of circumstances, the action is what is under question and that does not alter with circumstances it is still 'an abortion'. So, you are saying that is it right and wrong at the same time - not consistent
yes i am if the girl is raped then its ok, if they didnt bother using any contraception and didnt take the pill and then expect an abortion then i think that it is very difficult to morally justify, whose who believe this please explain your rational
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pedy1986
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#38
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#38
(Original post by Speciez99)
agreed


yes i am if the girl is raped then its ok, if they didnt bother using any contraception and didnt take the pill and then expect an abortion then i think that it is very difficult to morally justify, whose who believe this please explain your rational
you have not answered my question, abortion is wrong in your view except in a few cirucumstances (i.e Rape) but that is irrelevant to the issue. Your beliefs are therefore inconsistent.
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txt_eva
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#39
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#39
(Original post by Cate)
So is it alright if I murder a random person just because I so wish?
No, because abortion is not murder. How can you say a foetus has had a life... it is living of the woman and is therefore the same as a parasite, and if it cannot live alone why should a women have to carry it.


(Original post by corey)
But the removal or your right to choose is justified because you are removing someones right to life - a much more important right.
A foetus, in my opinion does not have a right to live until it is born.

(Original post by Speciez99)
yes i am if the girl is raped then its ok, if they didnt bother using any contraception and didnt take the pill and then expect an abortion then i think that it is very difficult to morally justify, whose who believe this please explain your rational

Some woman can't take the pill, and condoms can break. Whilst abortion should not be seen as a type of contraception, it should not be ruled out as a choice.
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Howard
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#40
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#40
(Original post by Speciez99)
agreed


yes i am if the girl is raped then its ok, if they didnt bother using any contraception and didnt take the pill and then expect an abortion then i think that it is very difficult to morally justify, whose who believe this please explain your rational
Well, if you are such an imbecile that you don't want a baby but can't be bothered to take the pill or at least ensure your partner wears something then perhaps you aren't perfect parent material.
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