Abortion

foolfarian

?
So you think it is totally a moral issue and not scientific?
Is it morally wrong to let someone who is braindead die?
J
(ps there is a good reason i use this analogy)

I think when he said "No scientific views" he was being sarcastic, and making a point about "no religious views"?

Letting them die is different from killing them, and not what we are talking about here, although there is no reason we shouldn't talk about it.

Reply 83

foolfarian

?
So you think it is totally a moral issue and not scientific?
Is it morally wrong to let someone who is braindead die?
J
(ps there is a good reason i use this analogy)

I was responding (more than anything) to the "no religious views" part of his original post. I also hate it when unborn children are addressed as a "bunch of cells" no matter the stage of pregnancy. This is literally true - we are all just a bunch of cells, but it makes a serious issue appear trivial.

Reply 84

jammyd

7

Bigcnee

No scientific views as well please.

I think abortion is morally wrong.

Is there a scientific view?

Reply 85

foolfarian

I'm sure that in islam abortion is only excused in the case of rape, whereas in catholicism it is never excused. interesting contrast
J

Indeed. The Catholic Church are not renowned for giving concessions on issues.

Reply 86

jammyd

Is there a scientific view?

I would imagine it is that a foetus is a bunch of cells and can't be considered a human being.

Reply 87

jammyd

Is there a scientific view?

Well as far as I am aware, there is no agreement within the scientific community as to when the foetus can be considered human, so maybe it is, at least for the present, a wholly moral issue.

Reply 88

jammyd

7

Bigcnee

I would imagine it is that a foetus is a bunch of cells and can't be considered a human being.

Well, can it seriously be considered to be a human being?

Reply 89

jammyd

Well, can it seriously be considered to be a human being?

Yes.

Reply 90

jammyd

Well, can it seriously be considered to be a human being?

There doesn't seem to be a more logical point for the moment when life becomes human and separate than fertilisation, or possibly implantation.

Reply 91

RetiredAccount89

18

hitchhiker_13

I think when he said "No scientific views" he was being sarcastic, and making a point about "no religious views"?

Letting them die is different from killing them, and not what we are talking about here, although there is no reason we shouldn't talk about it.

aha, but heres the thing
A person on life support is being artificially given sustinence by others, and could not survive if it were withdrawn.
Same with a foetus
A person who is brain dead has no brain functions aside from the lower reflexes.
Same with a foetus (until about 12 weeks)

Hence why i think abortion till a certain point in pregnancy is the right of the woman. It's the doctors responsiblity to make it as risk free as possible.

J
PS sorry, didnt realise the sarcasm, i think i skimmed the original post.

Reply 92

jammyd

7

Bigcnee

Yes.

Isn't it a Foetus?

Reply 93

Helenia

20

hitchhiker_13

There doesn't seem to be a more logical point for the moment when life becomes human and separate than fertilisation, or possibly implantation.

Do you know anything about embryology? OK, J will know a lot more than me, but I really don't think that the trilaminar disk that is present at a week or so constitutes a human life, nor do the subsequent stages of development until it becomes capable of sustaining life on its own.

Reply 94

foolfarian

aha, but heres the thing
A person on life support is being artificially given sustinence by others, and could not survive if it were withdrawn.
Same with a foetus
A person who is brain dead has no brain functions aside from the lower reflexes.
Same with a foetus (until about 12 weeks)

Hence why i think abortion till a certain point in pregnancy is the right of the woman. It's the doctors responsiblity to make it as risk free as possible.

J
PS sorry, didnt realise the sarcasm, i think i skimmed the original post.

But a person on life support is usually unlikely to recover, and the means of keeping them alive are wholly artificial.
It's true the foetus could not survive without its mother (up until a certain time) but this is a natural and transitory phase we all go through rather than an attempt to prolong life with a machine.

Reply 95

MadNatSci

12

I love it when people who have no possibility of anything like this ever happening to them sit there and moralise about how abortion is murder... If I were raped and became pregant, there is NO WAY I would carry the child. Women should have the right to choice. A foetus is indeed human but it seems daft to me to call it murder until it is capable of surviving on its own. Like it or not, it IS a bunch of cells for the first few weeks. And the thought of being forced to carry a child produced by rape... ugh.

Anyway, Bigcnee, if as you say there can be no concessions: what if the mother's life is in danger? If carrying and delivering the child would kill her, and probably the baby? They might not discover this until she were pregant; would you still say she should not be allowed to abort it?

Reply 96

Helenia

Do you know anything about embryology? OK, J will know a lot more than me, but I really don't think that the trilaminar disk that is present at a week or so constitutes a human life, nor do the subsequent stages of development until it becomes capable of sustaining life on its own.

My point was that these are really the only points that are definite, if you know what I mean. I'm not explaining myself well.
There is no specific age at which a foetus can suddenly survive outside the womb - it depends on technology available and the individual child. What I was trying to say that it is tricky to determine any other specific point, and that at this stage, the embryo has all the neccessary potential to become human life.

Reply 97

jammyd

Isn't it a Foetus?

Please tell me why the two are mutually exclusive.

Reply 98