Black Gun Crime

Give the prison officers balaclavas then, disguise their identity.

You are working on the idea that all prisoners are homeless. They're not. Many have reasonably comfortable lives outside jail, but commit crime so that they can buy a TV, or drugs.

Same principle.

Why do we need rewards? They work, they eat, they don't work, they don't eat.

I wonder how Prisons heating bills cost, while pensioners who have worked hard all their lives shiver in their homes.

Give them balaclavas, and keep the prisoners cuffed. That's an ultimate removal of freedom, something you seem to be all for...
And a prison officer is acting as the arm of the state

The word socio-economic is used to refer to a demographic, not an individual.

But why make it nice for them once they've been caught?

Make prison a fusion then. You get a two year sentence, you spend 6 months up at the crack of dawn, breaking rocks, cold, tired, hungry. Then you put them in education programmes, in different accommodation, with adequate food and comfort, where if they don't work hard, they return to breaking rocks.

I'm not talking about putting people on the rack. I'm just talking about make their lives hard. If they work hard, and break rocks, they won't be flogged. If they slack off, they get flogged.

And you've just defeated your own point. When they kill someone, they have no rationality, so there is no rationality for them to lose in prison.

No it's not. I'm trying to work out what your ideas are on criminals' value in society.

You didn't answer this:

Consider what you are suggesting: prisoners want their basic needs of shelter, food and water met. Even if the gruelling punishments you are suggesting were initiated, people would still reoffend because it is better than sitting on the streets in the cold having nothing to do at all. Do you think they care if they have to pull rocks? Having a bed, food and water is better than being at the mercy of the climate and people's charity when homeless.

It doesn't stop people on the outside attacking indiscriminately any prison officer who leaves the premises. The cost of ensuring 24/7 protection for all prison officers and their friends/families cannot be met with the government budget. Have you ever heard of blackmail? Release me or I'll kill your daughter. Have you ever heard of bribery? Release me and I'll pay you £1 million.

No. One has at-point consequences, the other has life-long consequences.

What is the incentive to remain complacent? It is impossible for a few staff to control a prison full of vengeful criminals. Prisoners are cunning; they will find a way to get back.

The prisoners will corroborate and attack the guards. Simply having handcuffs is not enough to stop assaults and shanks from being crafted.

So they can reintegrate after release. Not all crimes are premeditated, and the person may have suffered from a lapse from a lapse in judgement and rationality. Stop presupposing everyone is rational when making decisions.

A prisoner doesn't care about trying to ameliorate their circumstances after being tortured. The only thing on their minds is revenge. They are going to kill someone, because they know that:


The cause must be tackled before the effect.

My questions were not rhetorical. In states where the prison system has similar circumstances that you propose are enforced here, why are there still such high incidences of crime? Do you not notice a trend between poor socioeconomic circumstances and propensity to commit crime?

Stop presupposing a permanent dichotomy. Somebody acting irrational in the heat of the moment does not means they are constantly irrational. Whereas they may have killed someone who was responsible for the death of a best friend, it doesn't mean they will kill everyone. Once they leave prison, their outlooks may change.

This discussion pertains to the treatment of prisoners, not criminals in general.

I did answer that. My answer was that most prisoners are not homeless. Most prisoners have a bed, food and water. They just commit crime to pay for luxuries.

Prisons used to be a lot harsher, and there was no evidence then of criminals going after prison officers when they got out, as they knew whatever they did to that prison officer, another would just replace them, and they'd be back to a nasty prison, where they'd be treated even worse because the screws would know they'd killed a fellow prison officer.

No, both act as a deterrent for the future.

If we cut the heating bill for prisons, and the food bill, we would be able to afford more prison officers. Also, I don't think it's impossible for a relatively small number of prison officers to control a large number of prisoners. If the prisoners each have their own cell, and are handcuffed whenever they are out of it, they will struggle to engineer an escape, or even cause trouble. And I'd just give the guards tasers

Because it's not that expensive. Keep them cuffed when they're out their cells, give the regular prison officers tasers, and have armed guards at the exits.

How on earth would a prisoner craft a shank with handcuffs on?

There's no point arguing about a word, that has different meanings in different contexts.

Make the prison horrible, and next time they lose their rationality, they will instinctively know what not to do.

I'm not talking about putting them on the rack. When I was younger, and it got to the winter, I was locked out of my house in the cold a couple of times, when I got back from school as I had forgotten to take my key. But after that happened twice, it never happened again. But the summer before, I was always forgetting it, as of course waiting outside in the warm was never a problem. As soon as I was denied a key part of Maslo's Hierarchy of Needs, I learned my lesson.

They have still committed a crime, and need to learn their lesson. If they spend a year or two breaking/dragging rocks, they will not do it again. They will also spread stories when they are out of how horrific it was.

But you seem to think that prisoners deserve the same treatment as those members of society who stay within the law.

2010 figures reveal 60% of prisoners reoffend because it is 'somewhere to live'.

Exactly. They relapse into criminality because they are sent back to a criminal environment. Cause must be tackled before effect. They will not need to commit criminal acts if jobs, education and training are made available to them.

Was there Internet, telephone, etc. facilitating instant information transfer and photographic evidence? Again, rationality goes out the window. They are already treated harshly if they kill an officer, yet people still do it. But people won't just replace them. People would become increasingly reluctant if the potential reprisals become too severe. Look at inter-prisoner crime; now imagine if there was a new collective enemy.

In substantially different ways. So much so, they are incomparable.

Then you would have to pay for the cost of malnutrition, coats for prison staff, CCTV, armed guards, supervisors, etc. It will cost too much for everyone in every category of prison to have their own cell. The whole point of prison tiers is that not everyone needs the same punishment to act as a deterrent, because not every crime is equal in severity. How would you stop external influence - I could be a good friend of a prisoner and join the officer service with the express purpose of allowing a revolt to occur.

How would you deal with those who have psychological illnesses, especially considering sustained abuse substantially increases the incidences of psychological problems?
Yeah, it really is expensive. Maximum security units for juveniles? Giant eyesores on the landscape? It is impossible to finance this, which is why a petty thief is not put in a category A prison: there is no need to pay so much to deter them from reoffending.

You don't deal well with pragmatic propositions, do you?

In the 'education period' you are proposing, do you believe it is not possible to formulate and use a shank?

You are wrong. Don't tell me I don't know what 'socioeconomic' means.

You don't know what 'rationality' entails, do you? It means logic, or consequences are not considered at all.

Being cold is not the same as being in a gang, starving on the streets, being under extreme duress, etc. Stop comparing weak scenarios with prison.

Answer the following: In states where the prison system has similar circumstances that you propose are enforced here, why are there still such high incidences of crime?

Why, despite the horror stories about rape and abuse in foreign prisons, do people still reoffend? Why are the crime rates not falling?

They clearly don't have the same rights as a normal member of the state. Having years of your life taken away, alienation, limits on job prospects and stigma until death is not similar to normal members of society, is it?

We're going round and round in circles, this will be my final, and much briefer reply.
The reason people reoffend in countries where they have a brutal prison system is desperation, as these countries often don't have very developed welfare systems, thus crimes are committed out of desperation.

I wouldn't have to pay for treating malnutrition at all - if the prisoners don't work, they don't eat, and if they don't eat, they starve. Basically, if they don't work, they starve - their choice.

Screws have always been the enemies of prisoners. That is declining now because we give prisoners luxuries. But we should not compromise the purpose of the prison system just to make prison officers' jobs easier. And one prison officer with a taser and the power to whip prisoners is as powerful as ten prison officers with no weapons, and no option of recourse, apart from taking away luxuries.

I think they listen to hip hop which glorifies guns, and alot of inner city black youth don't have a rolemodel to look up to, so they want to be like the rappers on TV etc

Relative poverty rates are the answer. And from that you can trace back to other things.

White man sells it to them. The whole 'gangsta' image in the media does not help either.

I listen to a lot of hip hop but im a pussy white boy. saying all hip hop music is about guns is like saying indie music is all about skinny jeans.

Yeh but you probably have a positive rolemodel in your life? These kids worship 50 cent etc

Yeh but you probably have a positive rolemodel in your life? These kids worship 50 cent etc

Blck man turns to gun crime, but it's the white mans fault, good system for those with skin pigmentation.

Hold on, it sounds like you're saying that there is no situation where the white man can influence the black man's actions

It's definitely a problem that needs addressing, I'll probably get negged for this but it just seems so many more black males are willing to conform to a stereotype than say, study hard, earn a degree and make their way out of poverty. It's a cultural issue rather than a racial one though.

It's definitely a problem that needs addressing, I'll probably get negged for this but it just seems so many more black males are willing to conform to a stereotype than say, study hard, earn a degree and make their way out of poverty. It's a cultural issue rather than a racial one though.

Im a Black Male. Ive studied tirelessly hard over the last 2 years and i am predicted at the very least A*AB. Compared to you i assume i am in relative poverty. But dont give me all this rubbish its a cultural issue, many of my black peers are in fact doing better then me, its a poverty/oportunity issue, not our 'culture'.

It's genetic.

There isn't a single 'black' culture. The culture of some people of all ethnicities in consistently deprived areas tend to be removed from those outside of the area. Gang crime and disillusionment perpetuate themselves and lead to an increased number of people falling into their traps. The economic and social factors are inextricably linked.

There are far more poor white people in the country than there are poor black people, but the skew in gun crime towards the black community still exists.


You have got to be kidding me. Blame white people... that's pretty dumb. People need to take responsibility rather than making excuses.