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B379 - Devolution in England Referendum Bill (Third Reading) watch

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    B379 - Devolution in England Referendum Bill, Rt. Hon. Ham and CheeseBE IT ENACTED by The Queen's most Excellent Majesty, by and with the consent of the Commons in this present parliament assembled, in accordance with the provisions of the parliament Acts 1911 and 1949, and by the authority of the same, as follows:-

    (1) Referendum on devolution in England

    a) Upon this Act coming into force, a referendum concerning devolution in England shall be held within six weeks.

    b) This Act requires that the question posed to the electorate shall be: 'Should England establish one, or more than one, devolved authority?

    c) The electorate will vote for one of five options:

    (i) Yes, one devolved authority for the whole of England;
    (ii) Yes, two devolved authorities representing the North and South of England;
    (iii) Yes, three devolved authorities representing the North and South of England and the Midlands;
    (iv) Yes, nine devolved authorities representing every region in England;
    (v) No.

    d) The results of the referendum are to be counted with 'Yes votes' against 'No votes'. If the 'Yes vote' is greater than the 'No vote', then the 'Yes votes' shall be split like on the ballot paper; the option (i,ii,iii and iv) with the highest number of votes 'winning'.

    e) Information shall be provided to the electorate, explaining each of the options, when they are about to vote.

    (2) Regional boundaries

    a) The boundaries for Northern England and Southern England shall be determined by the Boundary Commission for England.

    (3) Other Information

    a) This act may be cited as the English Devolution Referendum Act.

    b) This act comes into force upon Royal Assent.

    c) This act extends to England only.


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    Second Reading

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    Credit to DayneD89 for the advice on the format of the referendum
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    Still not keen. Would rather bar non English MP's voting on English only issues. Seems a better cheaper solution
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    Still not keen. Would rather bar non English MP's voting on English only issues. Seems a better cheaper solution
    If we were to work on that premise, then why did we give devolve power to Scotland and Wales then? I am happy with non-English MPs only voting on English issues but the fact is that the English people need to have the choice; both the people of Scotland and Wales have had numerous referendums to make decision on devolution so I feel its only fair that we grant one referendum to the people of England.

    Plus I'd argue that having a devolved England will be better than the alternative you have suggested because it will result in more 'local' issues being dealt with which would otherwise be neglected by the Commons.
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    For a third time no.

    I support Aj12's idea of barring non-English MP's from voting on English issues however
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    I feel I can support this now, unless something/someone comes along to change my mind.
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    (Original post by Ham and Cheese)
    If we were to work on that premise, then why did we give devolve power to Scotland and Wales then? I am happy with non-English MPs only voting on English issues but the fact is that the English people need to have the choice; both the people of Scotland and Wales have had numerous referendums to make decision on devolution so I feel its only fair that we grant one referendum to the people of England.

    Plus I'd argue that having a devolved England will be better than the alternative you have suggested because it will result in more 'local' issues being dealt with which would otherwise be neglected by the Commons.
    Alright, I shall consider voting yes then.
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    So we end up with more referendums to decide the number? Hell, convince me of the legitimacy of democracy here. A bill concerning the devolution of powers to England I would consider, but not a referendum. It's either a good idea or not - whether it's popular at the time of said referendum I feel is largely irrelevant.
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    No. If we are to have devolved power in England, the format should be agreed on by the majority. Under this referendum, a certain type of devolution could be imposed on the country without the approval of the majority of voters.
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    (Original post by jesusandtequila)
    So we end up with more referendums to decide the number? Hell, convince me of the legitimacy of democracy here. A bill concerning the devolution of powers to England I would consider, but not a referendum. It's either a good idea or not - whether it's popular at the time of said referendum I feel is largely irrelevant.
    Incorrect. It will be one referendum but with a multiple options but I don't feel you can start attacking the use of a referendum when Wales has had not one, but three referendums on devolution, with the last referendum asking the people whether the Welsh National Assembly should start using the powers they have devolved towards them.

    Devolution is a good idea but like with all constitutional issues, I believe this is an issue which must be decided in the most democratic way, and that is through a referendum.
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    (Original post by Ham and Cheese)
    Incorrect. It will be one referendum but with a multiple options but I don't feel you can start attacking the use of a referendum when Wales has had not one, but three referendums on devolution, with the last referendum asking the people whether the Welsh National Assembly should start using the powers they have devolved towards them.

    Devolution is a good idea but like with all constitutional issues, I believe this is an issue which must be decided in the most democratic way, and that is through a referendum.
    Your method doesn't take into account that many would prefer a unified England with devolved powers, then support No, then the other proposals. We could end up with 3 regions where most people would rather have No devolution than have that. The method is completely flawed (it should be run under AV - rather than making assumptions about preferences), so it's a Nay just on that.

    Even then, why must it be decided democratically. Deocracy at the best of times is a means to an end, not an end in itself. If it's a good idea, do it, if it's not, don't. Popularity at any given time should have absolutely no baring on whether it's a good idea - that is to commit the fallacy of argumentum ad populum.
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    (Original post by jesusandtequila)
    Your method doesn't take into account that many would prefer a unified England with devolved powers, then support No, then the other proposals. We could end up with 3 regions where most people would rather have No devolution than have that. The method is completely flawed (it should be run under AV - rather than making assumptions about preferences), so it's a Nay just on that.

    Even then, why must it be decided democratically. Deocracy at the best of times is a means to an end, not an end in itself. If it's a good idea, do it, if it's not, don't. Popularity at any given time should have absolutely no baring on whether it's a good idea - that is to commit the fallacy of argumentum ad populum.
    Ideally perhaps, but we don't have the option of an AV referendum as we have to work within the TSR framework.

    I would agree with you usually on referendums tbh. Devolution is one area where I do support referendums though. To impose a devolved assembly without the support of the people is unjust, and will not work.
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    (Original post by TheCrackInTime)
    No. If we are to have devolved power in England, the format should be agreed on by the majority. Under this referendum, a certain type of devolution could be imposed on the country without the approval of the majority of voters.
    Again, I would ideally agree. The problem is that this, unlike most of the things we debate, has to work within a certain framework. The mods would not allow us to have multiple polls, and we can't have an AV referendum on TSR, so this is the best and fairest compromise we have within this framework.
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    (Original post by DayneD89)
    Ideally perhaps, but we don't have the option of an AV referendum as we have to work within the TSR framework.
    Even then we could use approval voting, rather than preferential (with the multiple-choice voting).

    I would agree with you usually on referendums tbh. Devolution is one area where I do support referendums though. To impose a devolved assembly without the support of the people is unjust, and will not work.
    Why would devolution be different? The idea is still good, bad, just or unjust whether it is popular or not, whether the idea is good or not is entirely independent of the popularity of it. Referendums make the assumption that crowds know best - and it's a shaky one at the best of times. I don't see why this is different for anything from devolution to EU membership to electoral voting systems.
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    (Original post by jesusandtequila)
    Even then we could use approval voting, rather than preferential (with the multiple-choice voting).
    That was one of the ideas I expressed in the second reading. I can see the benefit tbh, I hadn't really thought about it much. I agree that multiple choice would be fairer. Prehaps H&C will change it for the vote. It's likely to find my support either way, but I agree your way would be better with approval voting.

    Why would devolution be different? The idea is still good, bad, just or unjust whether it is popular or not, whether the idea is good or not is entirely independent of the popularity of it. Referendums make the assumption that crowds know best - and it's a shaky one at the best of times. I don't see why this is different for anything from devolution to EU membership to electoral voting systems.
    Becuase devolution is a good idea if the people want it, and a bad idea if the people do not. On it's own it isn't particularly either.
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    (Original post by DayneD89)
    Becuase devolution is a good idea if the people want it, and a bad idea if the people do not. On it's own it isn't particularly either.
    How does the popularity of the idea affect it in this instance? I don't see government at a level being less effective, better or worse if people do not want the powers at a layer of 50 million instead of 60 million. I really don't see why or how devolution should be an exception to the rule.
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    Division!!
 
 
 
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