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'The Bacchae' help needed!
Hi, I'm studying 'The Bacchae' for Classical Civilisation A2 (OCR) and I'm finding it really hard-going, I even forget the intricacies of the plot at the slightest distraction, which is getting quite worrying. We are studying this in conjuction with 'Hippolytus' and 'Medea' both of which I adore, it's just I can't get my head around this. Obviously I've been tuaght roles of the characters, and symbolism in speeches, but what I'm really stuck for is themes and motifs that would be asked for at essay stage (we've only just begun the study of the play and so I've done no practice papers yet). If anyone could be so kind as to tell me a little about the overall effect that 'The Bacchae' tries to achieve and a little about its main themes I'd be EVER so grateful! Thanks so much!
hey there, i did the Bacchae for AS last year and although i do definately need to double check on this, i thought id reply anyway and give you a rough idea of some themes of the play:
--- Bacchus is the god of wine (as well as of the arts and things). Im pretty sure one of the themes was to do with wine and the effect it has on the women - ie. they are drunk, intoxicated and so possessed by Bacchus.
---I think another was to do with disguises. Bacchus (or Dionysus, which ever you prefer) spends much of the play disguised as a strager, Pentheus disguises himself as a female Bacchant, as do Cadmus and Tireseas.
thats it for now but i'll get back to you!!
--- Bacchus is the god of wine (as well as of the arts and things). Im pretty sure one of the themes was to do with wine and the effect it has on the women - ie. they are drunk, intoxicated and so possessed by Bacchus.
---I think another was to do with disguises. Bacchus (or Dionysus, which ever you prefer) spends much of the play disguised as a strager, Pentheus disguises himself as a female Bacchant, as do Cadmus and Tireseas.
thats it for now but i'll get back to you!!
I did the Bacchae for AS Greek and then at uni, so will offer a few (hopefully useful) suggestions:
As nuttymimi said, Dionysus is the god of wine; this is actually a small part of his being the 'releaser of cares' - one of his cult names is Luaios, the Releaser (Liber in Latin). He removes the normal boundaries and limits which humankind has set up for itself and blurs distinctions of male/female, man/beast etc. He himself is described as a rather androgynous figure, with long golden curls and pale skin like one who stays indoors (ie a woman); Pentheus accuses him of being feminine, but also of seeking to mate with women. Later on Pentheus sees a bull and thinks it is Dionysus, confused over whether he is man or beast (an accurate perception despite his madness; in a sense his madness makes him see more clearly, as he now sees double and sees the duality in things which he had previously failed to recognise.)
Hence the wine, which removes inhibitions, and the nature of his worship when the women are freed from their conventional roles as part of the household and the polis and driven to the mountain possessed by the Bacchic spirit - in this case a wildness that has a tragic ending, and is partly a response to the over-rigid enforcement of boundaries that Pentheus has imposed on Thebes. In refusing to recognise that law and order and release of the kind that Dionysus offers both have a part to play in human society, Pentheus upsets the balance of the two elements and pays the price. He placed too much of an emphasis on order, and is destroyed by a corresponding overemphasis on release and removal of boundaries; the element he rejected becomes too strong and destroys him, first turning him mad (which itself is an expression of the Dionysian side becoming too strong; his mental control, which would normally prevent him from acting in a way detrimental to society, is remoived, as is that of his mother and his aunts, who would never in their right mind kill their son/nephew - another example of a leaning too far one way - Pentheus' rigid control over his city and rejection of the god - causing destruction by going too far the other way and removing all his inhibitions.)
Dionysus is also the god of theatre, which (as nuttymimi said) is shown partly by the theme of disguise found in the play, and the sense that 'nothing is as it seems' - Pentheus sees a bull where there is none, and also see double. Agave sees her son's head as a lion's, and Cadmus and Teiresias misunderstand the true nature of the god's worship (look at what they say and compare it to the kind of things the Athenian sophists of the time say), as does Pentheus in a different way. Dionysus himself is the master of disguise, and seems to direct the whole play (see his first speech). Dionysus creates a 'phantom in the courtyard' which deceives Pentheus, rather in the way that things with no real substance are created on stage to represnt something and, at least for a while, fool the audience. The play is, of course, being shown in a theatre, but is within itself playing with the concept of what stagecraft means, and how it deceives the audience to achieve its end.
Also think about the character of Pentheus and how sympathetic we can be to his downfall; he's often seen as a basic 'tyrant' type figure, but it's much more subtle than that. What does he say?
I definitely haven't covered anything like a full 'overview' of the Bacchae there, and it might all be completely nonsensical. This is my view of the play after studying it; I just hope some of it does make sense and that it gives you something to think about and possibly use for essays. It might also be worth looking for a commentary on the Bacchae in the library or somewhere - there's the intro to the Penguin, but that's fairly basic and short - try E.R.Dodds' commentary if available, or his book 'The Greeks and the Irrational' which has a good chapter on Dionysiac worship. Whatever you read, don't take it as gospel truth, just food for thought (am sure you know that, but sometimes these things tend to state their ideas as though they were the only possible way of reading the play rather than just one view of it.)
Hope this helps; good luck!
Just remembered, writing post below - might also be worth thinking about the fact that Dionysus is 'foreign' - he comes from the East, bringing a new form of worship, but is at the same time not foreign, being Pentheus' cousin , grandson of Cadmus and born of a Theban woman. What significance does this have?
As nuttymimi said, Dionysus is the god of wine; this is actually a small part of his being the 'releaser of cares' - one of his cult names is Luaios, the Releaser (Liber in Latin). He removes the normal boundaries and limits which humankind has set up for itself and blurs distinctions of male/female, man/beast etc. He himself is described as a rather androgynous figure, with long golden curls and pale skin like one who stays indoors (ie a woman); Pentheus accuses him of being feminine, but also of seeking to mate with women. Later on Pentheus sees a bull and thinks it is Dionysus, confused over whether he is man or beast (an accurate perception despite his madness; in a sense his madness makes him see more clearly, as he now sees double and sees the duality in things which he had previously failed to recognise.)
Hence the wine, which removes inhibitions, and the nature of his worship when the women are freed from their conventional roles as part of the household and the polis and driven to the mountain possessed by the Bacchic spirit - in this case a wildness that has a tragic ending, and is partly a response to the over-rigid enforcement of boundaries that Pentheus has imposed on Thebes. In refusing to recognise that law and order and release of the kind that Dionysus offers both have a part to play in human society, Pentheus upsets the balance of the two elements and pays the price. He placed too much of an emphasis on order, and is destroyed by a corresponding overemphasis on release and removal of boundaries; the element he rejected becomes too strong and destroys him, first turning him mad (which itself is an expression of the Dionysian side becoming too strong; his mental control, which would normally prevent him from acting in a way detrimental to society, is remoived, as is that of his mother and his aunts, who would never in their right mind kill their son/nephew - another example of a leaning too far one way - Pentheus' rigid control over his city and rejection of the god - causing destruction by going too far the other way and removing all his inhibitions.)
Dionysus is also the god of theatre, which (as nuttymimi said) is shown partly by the theme of disguise found in the play, and the sense that 'nothing is as it seems' - Pentheus sees a bull where there is none, and also see double. Agave sees her son's head as a lion's, and Cadmus and Teiresias misunderstand the true nature of the god's worship (look at what they say and compare it to the kind of things the Athenian sophists of the time say), as does Pentheus in a different way. Dionysus himself is the master of disguise, and seems to direct the whole play (see his first speech). Dionysus creates a 'phantom in the courtyard' which deceives Pentheus, rather in the way that things with no real substance are created on stage to represnt something and, at least for a while, fool the audience. The play is, of course, being shown in a theatre, but is within itself playing with the concept of what stagecraft means, and how it deceives the audience to achieve its end.
Also think about the character of Pentheus and how sympathetic we can be to his downfall; he's often seen as a basic 'tyrant' type figure, but it's much more subtle than that. What does he say?
I definitely haven't covered anything like a full 'overview' of the Bacchae there, and it might all be completely nonsensical. This is my view of the play after studying it; I just hope some of it does make sense and that it gives you something to think about and possibly use for essays. It might also be worth looking for a commentary on the Bacchae in the library or somewhere - there's the intro to the Penguin, but that's fairly basic and short - try E.R.Dodds' commentary if available, or his book 'The Greeks and the Irrational' which has a good chapter on Dionysiac worship. Whatever you read, don't take it as gospel truth, just food for thought (am sure you know that, but sometimes these things tend to state their ideas as though they were the only possible way of reading the play rather than just one view of it.)
Hope this helps; good luck!
Just remembered, writing post below - might also be worth thinking about the fact that Dionysus is 'foreign' - he comes from the East, bringing a new form of worship, but is at the same time not foreign, being Pentheus' cousin , grandson of Cadmus and born of a Theban woman. What significance does this have?
Wow, that's really helpful (post above)! You seem to know your stuff- I'm doing the Bacchae for AS Classics too at the moment, though we've only read a small bit. We did Hippolytus too which I think is easier to look at and shred (as it were), we'll be doing Medea next. So to the original plea for help, I can't really respond very well, maybe once we have finished reading it.
Thanks I'm glad it's useful, I did the Bacchae twice, once for AS and once for Mods at uni, so am reasonably well up on it, though have forgotten some things. The above is mostly the fruit of tutorials with my slightly mad tutor, who has some...interesting, but far-out ideas, and likes to talk about 'the Ideological Other', 'Duality' and 'The Mask'- I'm surprised I didn't talk about the Other there (Dionysus, for example, is the Other, being somewhat feminine, somewhat beastlike and somewhat foreign - but is he really the Other? 
My tutor likes to challenge these things...)
Good luck with the plays ppl who are doing them - I'm doing Hippolytus atm for my Greek Core paper. I think I'd prefer Medea, I haven't clicked with Hippolytus really. (the play that is, I really can't click with the character!).
I'm glad it's useful, I did the Bacchae twice, once for AS and once for Mods at uni, so am reasonably well up on it, though have forgotten some things. The above is mostly the fruit of tutorials with my slightly mad tutor, who has some...interesting, but far-out ideas, and likes to talk about 'the Ideological Other', 'Duality' and 'The Mask'- I'm surprised I didn't talk about the Other there (Dionysus, for example, is the Other, being somewhat feminine, somewhat beastlike and somewhat foreign - but is he really the Other? My tutor likes to challenge these things...)Good luck with the plays ppl who are doing them - I'm doing Hippolytus atm for my Greek Core paper. I think I'd prefer Medea, I haven't clicked with Hippolytus really. (the play that is, I really can't click with the character!).
tritogeneia1: wow, that was great! I'm doing the play at A2 as well and that was really informative and useful.
This is a little point, but wasn't Dionysos somehow connected with a bull in Greek mythology? I'm sure I've heard about him having bull's horns on his head? Maybe that's why a bull was chosen to be tied up by Pentheus rather than Dionysos - he tied up a symbol of him but not actually him?
tritogeneia1
Dionysus is also the god of theatre, which (as nuttymimi said) is shown partly by the theme of disguise found in the play, and the sense that 'nothing is as it seems' - Pentheus sees a bull where there is none, and also see double.
This is a little point, but wasn't Dionysos somehow connected with a bull in Greek mythology? I'm sure I've heard about him having bull's horns on his head? Maybe that's why a bull was chosen to be tied up by Pentheus rather than Dionysos - he tied up a symbol of him but not actually him?
Dabrowski
tritogeneia1: wow, that was great! I'm doing the play at A2 as well and that was really informative and useful.
This is a little point, but wasn't Dionysos somehow connected with a bull in Greek mythology? I'm sure I've heard about him having bull's horns on his head? Maybe that's why a bull was chosen to be tied up by Pentheus rather than Dionysos - he tied up a symbol of him but not actually him?
This is a little point, but wasn't Dionysos somehow connected with a bull in Greek mythology? I'm sure I've heard about him having bull's horns on his head? Maybe that's why a bull was chosen to be tied up by Pentheus rather than Dionysos - he tied up a symbol of him but not actually him?
Happy to help
Glad I can remember all that stuff and that it's useful!I'm not sure about Dionysus and the bull; I'll have to go and find out now, it's bugging me! I think you could be right, but I can't think of the connection - your theory would make sense though, and perhaps there's some kind of connection with the bulls torn apart by the women? Though I'm not sure what...perhaps significant because Pentheus himself is about to be torn apart like the bulls on the mountain?
OK, I need to go look that up; will let you know if I find anything useful!
Yes, Dionysus' one form is a bull. he is also called 'Bromios' (the roaring one). It is ironic that Pentheus sees Dionysus as a bull (epiphany) when Dionysus takes over his mind and makes him actually mad as opposed to before, when he was sane and Tiresias calls him mad for not seeing Dionysus as a God.
Also, try to see the difference between the effeminate stranger as Dionysus and Dionysus' true form as a bull. It shows the two sides (duality) to Dionysus and is a big theme in the play. The stranger is calm, gentle and rational but Dionysus as a God is violent as he shakes down Pentheus' palace. The stranger is extremely self-controlled and calm, which is ironic as his followers, the Maenads are ecstatic and have let go of their rationalism. This is the power Dionysus has over pthe character's minds. Pentheus is basically Dionysus' foil and his exact opponent. While he is angry and agitated, Dionysus is calm and self confident. Dionysus' is "hunted" by Pentheus at the beginning (fawn simile) but the roles are reversed as the hunter becomes the hunted. This power is also a big theme in the play. Pentheus tries to enforce his power on Dionysus but Dionysus is a god and cannot be controlled, which angers Pentheus. So one could argue, that although Dionysus was " hunted" at the start and although, there is a see-saw of power, Pentheus could never harm him as Dionysus is a god and is almost the author of the play. He dictates and orchestrates the play.
There are tons more points but it'll take too long to write them. lol. Hope this helps
Also, try to see the difference between the effeminate stranger as Dionysus and Dionysus' true form as a bull. It shows the two sides (duality) to Dionysus and is a big theme in the play. The stranger is calm, gentle and rational but Dionysus as a God is violent as he shakes down Pentheus' palace. The stranger is extremely self-controlled and calm, which is ironic as his followers, the Maenads are ecstatic and have let go of their rationalism. This is the power Dionysus has over pthe character's minds. Pentheus is basically Dionysus' foil and his exact opponent. While he is angry and agitated, Dionysus is calm and self confident. Dionysus' is "hunted" by Pentheus at the beginning (fawn simile) but the roles are reversed as the hunter becomes the hunted. This power is also a big theme in the play. Pentheus tries to enforce his power on Dionysus but Dionysus is a god and cannot be controlled, which angers Pentheus. So one could argue, that although Dionysus was " hunted" at the start and although, there is a see-saw of power, Pentheus could never harm him as Dionysus is a god and is almost the author of the play. He dictates and orchestrates the play.
There are tons more points but it'll take too long to write them. lol. Hope this helps
Getting through AS/A level Classics is very easy. You just have to know the basics to give yourself a framework. The most basic place to start with The Bacchae (at least I find) is to look for the conflicts that are being played on. These tend to be fairly standard in a fair few tragedies. In this case these are:
nomos v physis
sophrosyne v hubris
rational v irrational
If you name these things, explain them a little bit and give good, solid examples (with quotes if you can) and relate them to the question its easy.
All the examples of these things have been written already above.
At AS and A Level the exam questions all want you to flag up the right words and you get a tick so get your teacher to give you a few example marking schemes and you will easily find the common denominators.
The greatest thing I like about the Bacchae is the irony that Dionysus, the god of the irrational and all things outside the mind, is in fact the one who displays sophrosyne and rational thought, whilst Pentheus, who considers himself level headed, shows hubris right from the outset and eventually is possessed by the irrational.
I have some essays I've written in the past, I think, for A Level and at Uni so if you want just PM me and I can email them to you
nomos v physis
sophrosyne v hubris
rational v irrational
If you name these things, explain them a little bit and give good, solid examples (with quotes if you can) and relate them to the question its easy.
All the examples of these things have been written already above.
At AS and A Level the exam questions all want you to flag up the right words and you get a tick so get your teacher to give you a few example marking schemes and you will easily find the common denominators.
The greatest thing I like about the Bacchae is the irony that Dionysus, the god of the irrational and all things outside the mind, is in fact the one who displays sophrosyne and rational thought, whilst Pentheus, who considers himself level headed, shows hubris right from the outset and eventually is possessed by the irrational.
I have some essays I've written in the past, I think, for A Level and at Uni so if you want just PM me and I can email them to you
Thanks for all the help guys, since I wrote this I've really got into the play, I LOVE it actually, there are such crunchy themes to debate. I love the reversal of strong Pentheus and disguised Dionysos to weak Pentheus and true Dionysos.
Another thing I also really like is the changes in tone, sometimes it's practically comedic, especially when Pentheus is so clearly falling into the grip of Dionysos (plus the cross dressing
), and then it changes to sombre and tragic in absolutely no time.
Thanks for all the above tips, I'm taking them all onboard...and you guys are right, A-level tragedy is not hard, you just have to get your head around the play and really know it.
Another thing I also really like is the changes in tone, sometimes it's practically comedic, especially when Pentheus is so clearly falling into the grip of Dionysos (plus the cross dressing
), and then it changes to sombre and tragic in absolutely no time.Thanks for all the above tips, I'm taking them all onboard...and you guys are right, A-level tragedy is not hard, you just have to get your head around the play and really know it.
Patrick7777
Another thing I also really like is the changes in tone, sometimes it's practically comedic, especially when Pentheus is so clearly falling into the grip of Dionysos (plus the cross dressing), and then it changes to sombre and tragic in absolutely no time.
Another thing I also really like is the changes in tone, sometimes it's practically comedic, especially when Pentheus is so clearly falling into the grip of Dionysos (plus the cross dressing
), and then it changes to sombre and tragic in absolutely no time.Pretty much sums up a night out drinking too - one minute everything's light-hearted and then it can all get terribly heavy. I love Euripides's themes - they're so knowing!
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