Why isn't Israel allowed to defend itself?

You can't be Jewish, a Jew would never label themself a chav. That makes me wonder what your motives were for this thread

Prejudice lol

Dw, I'm just carrying on the "prejudice" posts...

Ah come onnn, we both know Jews wouldn't do that

LoL, well maybe she's Sephardi?

(Disclaimer, my mum's too.)

No, it's because a hefty proportion of pro-Palestinians use 'anti-zionism' as a façade for their rampant anti-semitism. So, it's to be expected that people will suspect anti-zionists of being anti-semitic.

I do love how I make you kids mad, the truth often does that to people. Why do you even talk about this conflict when it's clear your knowledge of it it begins and ends with "Israel com steal land...den dey kik poor palarstinian out and kill der babbies!!!!!" - even more sad is that you told someone to "learn history" and to "get their facts straight".

You come out with all these facts and statistics yet I get the feeling you have never even been to Gaza.

Maybe if you were there when the IDF was brassing the place up with .50 cals and indescriminantly dropping white phosphorus on the place you would think a little differently

They 'deserve' a homeland because of thousands of years worth of Christian and Islamic persecution and hatred (the latter of which continues to this very do) - it became very apparent that the only way to free the Jewish people from their nightmare, was to give them a homeland where they could rule themselves, free from tyranny.

You come out with all these facts and statistics yet I get the feeling you have never even been to Gaza.

Maybe if you were there when the IDF was brassing the place up with .50 cals and indescriminantly dropping white phosphorus on the place you would think a little differently

What about the Kurds? If the Jews can have their own country why can't the Kurds?

What about the Kurds? If the Jews can have their own country why can't the Kurds?

They can?

I've never held the position that the Kurds can't have their own country. In fact, I've recently mentioned how Turkey is 'getting away' with air-striking and shelling Iraqi Kurdistan (mentioned Iran too), I also support independence for the Karen people and the people of West Papua to name a few, if you have followed my posts in the past, one of my biggest issues with Palestine is how it starves other people and their causes of a much needed voice in the international community.

Not if you're Jewish. Then you have immunity.

Then I wish I was Jewish so I could criticise Israel

The responses in this thread display just how ignorant and stupid the majority of people are when it comes to discussing this conflict. I'm surprised you can bloody dress yourselves in the morning with some of the stuff you lot come out with.

None of you are getting another reply. I'm just providing an alternate (and truthful) side to this in order to counter all of your stupid claims, so that unwitting non-partisan lurkers won't join your band wagon or be taken in by your bull****.



Really? Palestinians have launched some 40~ rockets at Israeli civilians since the start of July and what has Israel done in response? They carried out air-strikes on weapons factories, terrorist training facilities and smuggling tunnels or basically, empty buildings - clearly a napalm response.

People like to single Israel out for being 'disproportionate' but they do so in complete ignorance of how other countries react to similar attacks and acts of aggression. Turkey has being hastily bombing Iraqi Kurdistan in addition to shelling it in response to a Kurdish attack that killed 10 Turkish soldiers. I don't think anybody can deny Turkey the right to pursue the terrorists that attacked their soldiers yet when it comes to Israel, they're expected to sit their and take it, nonsense.

Then you have to consider the fact that Israel has killed some 8,000 Palestinians during some 63~ years of fighting with them. I can't be bothered typing out the list again, please do look up conflicts which have happened during these 63 years, look at the duration of them and then look at the death tolls, then try to tell me that Israel acts disproportionally.



Who is 'they' and if you bothered looking into the story, you'd know that the kids who had just emerged from five days in a bomb shelter, were writing messages to Hasan Nasrallah and Hezbollah on the rockets, not Lebanese civilians. The rockets they were signing were also incapable of reaching Beirut from the position they were fired so go figure.



No, they're not having their rights 'systematically' removed, if you're going to make such a retarded statement, then back it up and don't bother linking to some ****ty map displaying Israeli settlement growth, the actual rights of Palestinians both in Israel and in the territories are not being 'systematically' taken away.

Arabs are generally treated better in Israel by Israelis than they are in their own Arab/Muslim countries, in fact, Palestinians are often treated worse in Arab countries than they are in the territories, refer to the refugee camps, they way they are ran and the laws preventing naturalization. Then you must consider the fact that Israel is not responsible for the actual rights in Gaza and the West Bank, Hamas and the PA are and if you bothered looking, you'd see their own individual human rights records are less than stellar. They began to have their rights taken away when their Arab 'brothers' sealed them in squalid refugee camps in order to be used as political pawns for the next half of a century.

I have no idea where you're getting the idea that Israel wants Palestine to have no international recognition or equality. Israel has afforded Palestinians numerous golden opportunities in the past which have been squandered by the Palestinians, if what you said was true, then they never would have made these offers but they did, so you're wrong. Palestinians already have de facto recognition because as of now, enough states currently recognize them and Abbas's statehood plan (which is not endorsed by the majority of Palestinians - he didn't even consult them and you want to talk about rights) is set to be a symbolic victory that will bring back violence and do nothing for the ordinary Palestinian, don't take it from me, take it from Khalid Abu Toameh, a Muslim Arab who has been covering this for decades.

You claim that Israel regularly bombs schools and hospitals yet fail to back this up, I wonder why? Gee, could it be because when Israel has bombed such places in the past, it as either been due to a mistake or because of militants using the facilities which makes them a legitimate military target? No, of course not, they bomb these places because they find it funny. We could easily just say that Palestinians regularly bomb houses, primary schools, gas pipelines etc but who cares, they aren't Jews.

You then say that Palestinians are denied the basic tools to rebuild their society and economy, yet the economy minister of Hamas recently said that unemployment in Gaza is no more than 25% and that over 1000 factories have opened - a construction boom. Besides the basics, luxury facilities have been opening in Gaza for years namely quality malls (with a 3D cinema, clothing, toys etc), restaurants, clubs, beach resorts and a recent spate of very nice hotels - pray tell how they are doing this is they are being denied basic materials - the leader of Gaza's Popular Committee against the Siege also said that the siege on goods is 60-70% over, go figure.

Also, in the first half of 2010, Gaza's economy grew by 16% almost double that of the West Bank's 9% even though Gaza is 'under siege' and 'denied access to basic tools'. It's still growing and sure, the economy is fragile and still hampered by the blockade and certain restrictions, however Israel can't afford to let Hamas go unfettered and don't give me this **** about 'collective punishment' if you want to talk about collective punishment, I'll gladly tell you about the Israeli towns 'collectively punished' by Palestinian rocket fire. Gee, imagine how the territories would flourish if Israel wasn't forced into blockading Gaza and restricting travel/access but no, people would love to see Hamas et al have the ability to acquire arms unchecked whilst benefiting from economic growth, all without making a single concession, not least on their 'inalienable right to resistance (terrorism)'.



Yeah, Israel totally doesn't want a two-state solution. That's exactly why Israel today is half the size of what it was during it's peak of 'expansionism', that's exactly why Palestinians have squandered 31 opportunities of statehood in order to pursue the unreachable goal of destroying Israel and reclaiming the remainder of Palestine, that's exactly why Israeli offers have offered a state in Gaza and 94%~ of the West Bank with land swaps/annexations of certain settlement blocs and that's exactly why Israel builds in and up as opposed to out causing populations to expand but not area taken.



This is one of the worst posts I've seen on TSR regarding Israel, and believe me, there's a lot to choose from.

First of all, Jews did not immigrate to the point where they formed a majority:


[http://www.mideastweb.org/palpop.htm - includes sources]

Secondly, the Jews did not divide Mandated Palestine nor was the idea to establish a Jewish homeland based on guilt from the Holocaust - how can you even say this nonsense? The only thing the Holocaust did was underline the need for a Jewish homeland, an idea that that really came to fruition in the late 1800's when Theodore Herzl lead the First Zionist Congress which then lead to the creation of the the World Zionist Organization. The pledge to create a Jewish homeland in Palestine came about with the Balfour Deceleration in 1917 which was incorporated into a peace treaty during the San Remo conference in 1920 (which included Britain, France, Italy, Japan and the US) - this is at least 2 decades before WW2 started.

Expanding on the above, the idea to partition Palestine originated around 1937 with the Peel Commission which was then followed up by the Woodhead Commission (later evaluated at the St. James Conference) - these were British en-devours, not nefarious Jewish plans. The idea to partition arose due to the understanding that Jewish and Arab interests were irreconcilable - during this, violence was increasing more and more. The British wanted out of Palestine as soon as possible and as such, they handed power over to the UN in 1947. The UN then established UNSCOP to devise a solution and they too came up with a partition plan which took the form of a GA resolution - Israel declared independence according to the partition plan a day before the British Mandate was due to expire and in 1949 they were admitted to the UN so no, the Jews did not exceed their authority, gain a majority through immigration or come up with a nefarious plan to split Palestine.



Here's a tip for you. If you don't want to expose yourself as being an anti-Semitic moron, then try not to say things like "I had a feeling you were a Jew" or "...Defender of the Jews", trying replacing the word "Jew" with "Zionist", it's much more covert. Don't bother trying to say "but but I can't be antisemitic because Arabs are Semitic and I don't mind them!" - the term antisemitism was coined by the Jew-hating German Wilhelm Marr in 1987~ and as such refers to Jews, not Semitic people.

I guess, according to your "logic", Palestinians aren't allowed to 'defend' themselves because the bastards have a habit of killing innocent Jews spanning from 1920 up until 2011

Anyone can criticise Israel so long as they realise a few historical and political facts instead of just reiterating some garbage, they've read in the guardian.

I've never read the guardian in my life

Oh pipe down.

I'am very busy so can't reply to all his but your "31 opportunities for statehood" is the biggest amount of BS I have ever heard. A state is no state if it is not allowed an army, air force and a foreign nation has the right to send its troops in and invade its air space at any given opportunity.

Great website by the way. Not biased at all. I mean it's not like David Horowitz accused the Muslim Students association of having links with Al Qaeda and Hamas (with 0 proof). Not as if he said "between 150 million and 750 million Muslims support a holy war against Christians, Jews and other Muslims." I mean it would be ludicrous to assume he said "The Palestinians are Nazis. Every one of their elected officials are terrorists." Not as if during a speech at the University of California at Santa Barbara, Horowitz accused students wearing green in support of the school's Muslim Student Association of supporting Hamas, and students wearing Arab Keffiyehs of honoring Yassir Arafat and terrorism. Oh wait...

IDF, David Horowitz... As usual your sources have amazing provenance.

I would rep you(and will if I have some).

I do feel that a lot of people these days get involved in political causes for very selfish reasons(vanity or just to give their pointless lives some purpose), just because they read some article in a pseudo-intellectual, alarmist, newspaper.