The Student Room Group

The LNAT - is it fair?

OK, at the time of creating the thread, I am not officially an Oxbridge reject, but having been pooled by Trinity, Cambridge and heard nothing, my fate is sealed. I will be an Oxbridge reject. That said, please do not think this is a rant by some arrogant person who thinks they should have got in and as such is attacking the system.

I don't know what my LNAT score was and have not had an offer from Bristol yet (hope I do). It may seem, however, it's bound to have been him who's the thread starter, the guy who did crap in the LNAT ........

But I really would like to know your opinions.

The LNAT is necessary, in that with Law being such a popular choice and with more and more people applying to the top unis with AAA(A) on their UCAS forms they need another criterion to examine people. However, in its current form, as you all know there is a massive multiple choice question bank and these are grouped randomly to form a test for each individual candidate. The problem is that although it is claimed that the questions are of a standardized difficulty, undoubtedly some passages are harder to understand than others, and its very feasible and very likely that some people got easier tests, possibly significantly easier, than others. Something so crucial to the admissions process should be fairer imo. I'm all for the on-screen test but the most important thing is that like the BMAT or the HAT or any A-Level there should be 1 sitting of the test during an admissions cycle and these should be held on the same day across the country in an examination centre.

If this system was employed there would be no differentiation of question and as I say one of the most key elements in a Law admissions process would lose the huge luck factor that currently exists. Secondly, though possibly less importantly, friends who have LNAT sittings at different times are bound to talk about questions that may well come up, candidates sitting the test later could be better equipped to take it.

This will be interesting come LNAT results day, (I can't believe there's going to be a results day in January) but before the results are published I would urge all Law applicants, prospective, current or past to air their views here.

Thank you.

Scroll to see replies

I'm not a candidate but a member of the LNAT board. I hope you won't mind me giving you my reactions.

1. It's true that, in spite of our pre-release checks, some questions could turn out to be harder that others. But the numbers taking the test are large enough from the outset to reveal quite quickly any statistically significant disparities in performance in different questions. We start running checks on this well before any university decisions are made and (were any statistically significant disparities to show up) we would run a normalisation algorithm to adjust upwards the score of any candidates who had been disadvantaged by the rogue question(s) that we found.

2. The risk of candidates discussing questions has been considered. Our professional advice is that this gives no possible help in the multiple choice section. Imaginably it might help in the essay section but for this reason we have an even larger bank of essay questions. The chances of you getting the same one as your friend are relatively small.

3. Your idea that everyone should sit the test on the same day was the same idea we had when we introduced the LNAT in 2004. That year we ran the test that way and we had countless candidate complaints about the inconvenience. We also had many candidates who (for good reason or ill) missed the test date, which created numerous difficulties for them as well as for universities. We also had to arrange huge test centres that inevitably had logistical problems because of the scale of the operation. There was a great deal of campaigning by candidates (including many on this forum) for a more flexible system. We investigated the alternatives and decided that the benefits to candidates of having a choice of test dates far outweighed any new hazards this would create. We (and we believe most candidates) have been satisfied with the outcome. A particular advantage of the more flexible system is that we can run the test easily overseas as well as in the UK, and indeed in many more remote parts of the UK. It also allows the system to adapt to the different closing dates of different universities. (Oxbridge candidates need to have taken the LNAT before most people have even considered which universities they will be applying to.)

Even if you still don't like the system, I hope you will at least appreciate that we (the LNAT universities) have thought about it in very great detail.

You should receive your multiple choice score by email on 31 January.
Reply 2
AAJ1

The LNAT is necessary, in that with Law being such a popular choice and with more and more people applying to the top unis with AAA(A) on their UCAS forms they need another criterion to examine people. However, in its current form, as you all know there is a massive multiple choice question bank and these are grouped randomly to form a test for each individual candidate. The problem is that although it is claimed that the questions are of a standardized difficulty, undoubtedly some passages are harder to understand than others, and its very feasible and very likely that some people got easier tests, possibly significantly easier, than others. Something so crucial to the admissions process should be fairer imo.


I recognise your point but think it would be interesting to point out that this problem extends far beyond the LNAT.

I took various A level and AS level modules in January, and sometimes questions that came up subsequently in the Summer examinations were much easier and vice versa. (I'm aware they were standardised, but still.)

It's very difficult, probably impossible to ensure that all Law candidates have an entirely equal shot at their application. I happened to read a friend's reference from her Sixth Form during the application cycle and it was obvious that her College took the whole matter a great deal more seriously than mine. We received a Cut 'n' paste generic statement whereas they received highly individualised and thoughtful comments. Similarly, I know of schools and colleges which have significant input into the structure and content of Personal Statements and others which leave students entirely to their own devices. Some students have good teachers, others bad.. These issues obviously cause some candidates to have greater chances than others... But isn't that a little bit like life? :smile:

The whole application system, in my opinion, is subject to a certain degree of luck and I believe one of the original purposes of the LNAT was to level the playing field slightly.
Reply 3
surey the questions are subective - i hear what youre saying about some questions being easier - but what you find hard may not be hard for someone else, ust as what you find easy may be very difficult for someone else.

Anyway - LNAt or no LNAT, it was inconvenient, EXPENSIVE, and pretty stressful having to do it. Sigh - its the price we pay, however, for having an interest in a subject that so many people are trying to study purely because they think they'll be getting a glittering high-paid career!
LawHopeful
EXPENSIVE,


Yes; can i point out that, with the LNAT, applying to Oxford essentially cost me £40? That it costs £30 for other univerisities is not much better... i (or at least my parents) could afford this, but it has to be asked that, when we are supposedly trying to open up access to the legal profesion (and thus, it follows, to legal education), should there really be such a heavy standard charge? Perhaps it may be wise to allow colleges, etc, to write to the LNAT organisation on the behalf of applicants who have a genuine financial problem with this, so a subsidised or reduced charge could be given?
I'm so used to this kind of thread that I can now predict exactly who will say what :p: My first two thoughts were: "John Gardner will respond quite diplomatically and as friendly as possible, and Dreama will have a pop at the A-level system".

:biggrin:

PS. Dreama is lovely and rocks my socks and isn't a moaning bitch whatsoever :smile: xx
Reply 6
Onearmedbandit
Dreama will have a pop at the A-level system".


Oi cheeky :wink: The A level system did me just fine thanks... I'm just pointing out that the whole system will naturally vary in fairness for each applicant.

If we're beginning to complain about the £30 charge, let's get started on the £11,000+ later in the training process.

Life's not fair... :smile:

J xx

ps - Mike- well done on surviving the 2 days from hell - spare a thought for those of us only halfway eh? Speak soon, moi xxxx
Reply 7
Dreama
ps - Mike- well done on surviving the 2 days from hell - spare a thought for those of us only halfway eh?

UCL have finished their exams AND, as I found out recently, have half the amount of essays as we do... WHAT AM I DOING??! :eek: :mad:

Seriously ~ lots of people heading straight to the Waterfront after EU on Thurs... you better be one of them Jo! :biggrin:
The LNAT's fine really. Just prepare yourself and distance yourself. Don't tell yourself it isnt relevant to the study of law- I can definitely see how the ability to handle those questions had an impact on your ability to handle some legal texts. The only thing about the LNAT score is it is what it is. No one had to try much more than anyone else to get their score. Effort matters hugely in law, so don't be disheartened if you get a lower score. With effort and application most law students can at least get a 2.1.
Reply 9
The LNAT is not fine when it counts you your place at the university you want to go to and are perfectly capable for. In my opinion the multiple choice should be slightly different in that you can invent what you personally think is the closest answer and explain it in a short paragraph. Surely this approach would test all the skills the LNAT strives to test at the moment, whilst also further legal skills to be assessed, and in addition allowing one not to feel constrained by a multiple choice for which the only answer that is right is sometimes down to personal opinion of the examiner. Personally I sometimes felt that it could be one of two answers sometimes and that with an arguement to back up a point either could be seen as valid. I understand that you're supposed to be able to differentiate by reading into the subtleties of the context and the words, which would obviously be required to study law, but sometimes i do think that the aforementioned process or some various would be fairer, although i do appreciate that it may be more time consuming and less easy to mark.
Reply 10
I don't see any reason, whatsoever, why our results are held back till the end of January. At least if we knew we had done really badly, we wouldn't be out of our minds wondering whether or not we were going to be offered places from certain unis. BMAT candidates had their results very quickly and their tests were done by hand!.
Reply 11
does anyone know what lnat score oxford were asking for in order to get an interview? i was told UCL look for 16-20 minimum :rolleyes: , although a score of 16 may not always get you a place
Two more points to add, in response to intervening posts.

Crazy Mongoose says "Perhaps it may be wise to allow colleges, etc, to write to the LNAT organisation on the behalf of applicants who have a genuine financial problem with this, so a subsidised or reduced charge could be given?"

No need. The LNAT consortium itself offers free tests for those on EMA. If £30 poses financial problems for you, you should be on EMA.

different? says "Personally I sometimes felt that it could be one of two answers sometimes and that with an arguement to back up a point either could be seen as valid."

There is only ever one correct answer. When another answer seems possible, the explanation is that it is very nearly correct but not quite. We are testing your ability to draw very fine distinctions. If two answerss both seem right you have not yet drawn a fine enough distinction. Why should you get some credit for not being very good at the very task that the question is designed to assess?
Reply 13
John Gardner
Two more points to add, in response to intervening posts.

There is only ever one correct answer. When another answer seems possible, the explanation is that it is very nearly correct but not quite. We are testing your ability to draw very fine distinctions. If two answerss both seem right you have not yet drawn a fine enough distinction. Why should you get some credit for not being very good at the very task that the question is designed to assess?


In response, could it not be argued then that there should be some distinction drawn between answers which are nearly correct and those which are plainly erroneous? For example, each response, assume there are four, could be graded on a scale. Perhaps 5 for a correct answer and 3 for the second best. This would perhaps enable the paper to distinguish between candidates who are 'getting there' and those who are struggling (guessing) answers.


For if some answers are better than others, surely selecting one of these answers should merit some credit over selecting an answer which is patently erroneous.

Just a suggestion :smile:
LawHopeful
Anyway - LNAt or no LNAT, it was inconvenient, EXPENSIVE, and pretty stressful having to do it.


Expensive: They will pay for it if you are finanicially constrained
Inconvenient: So dont apply to the LNAT universities. The LSE and the London Met (!) do not require it.
Stressful: LOL !!!!!!! Just wait till you have your Prelims/ Moderations/ University exams !

In any case, if you found it incredibly hard, perhaps you are not suited for the course. I have no direct experience of the LNAT but have close friends who did the LNAT, found it relatively easy and are now doing Law at Oxford and UCL.
Reply 15
Exactly, what I wanted, a good debate about the LNAT, in response to the 1st reply from JohnGardner

1. It's true that, in spite of our pre-release checks, some questions could turn out to be harder that others. But the numbers taking the test are large enough from the outset to reveal quite quickly any statistically significant disparities in performance in different questions. We start running checks on this well before any university decisions are made and (were any statistically significant disparities to show up) we would run a normalisation algorithm to adjust upwards the score of any candidates who had been disadvantaged by the rogue question(s) that we found.

2. The risk of candidates discussing questions has been considered. Our professional advice is that this gives no possible help in the multiple choice section. Imaginably it might help in the essay section but for this reason we have an even larger bank of essay questions. The chances of you getting the same one as your friend are relatively small.

3. Your idea that everyone should sit the test on the same day was the same idea we had when we introduced the LNAT in 2004. That year we ran the test that way and we had countless candidate complaints about the inconvenience. We also had many candidates who (for good reason or ill) missed the test date, which created numerous difficulties for them as well as for universities. We also had to arrange huge test centres that inevitably had logistical problems because of the scale of the operation. There was a great deal of campaigning by candidates (including many on this forum) for a more flexible system. We investigated the alternatives and decided that the benefits to candidates of having a choice of test dates far outweighed any new hazards this would create. We (and we believe most candidates) have been satisfied with the outcome. A particular advantage of the more flexible system is that we can run the test easily overseas as well as in the UK, and indeed in many more remote parts of the UK. It also allows the system to adapt to the different closing dates of different universities. (Oxbridge candidates need to have taken the LNAT before most people have even considered which universities they will be applying to.)

Even if you still don't like the system, I hope you will at least appreciate that we (the LNAT universities) have thought about it in very great detail.

You should receive your multiple choice score by email on 31 January.


On the first point, I appreciate that you carry out statistical tests on responses to questions etc. which would even out the playing field to some degree, but the point that LawHopeful made is entirely relevant.. there is an element of subjectivity involved in difficulty, but then some passages are plainly, objectively more difficult to understand than others.

By having the same questions for the same admissions cycle the luck factor (still in existence) - is undoubtedly reduced, as everyone is judged by exactly the same yardstick. The point about statistical significance is important -but universities (Bristol as an example) use the LNAT for 50 "admissions points", meaning that every single question on the LNAT is equivalent to one GCSE grade. So a candidate getting 16 and another getting 19, would represent a candidate getting an A* and another getting a C at a certain GCSE subject. If Unis are going to use the LNAT to such an extent then, I still feel this fairer option should be employed.

On the second point, while minor, how can professional advice say that candidates have no possible help in the MC section. In an LNAT question, sometimes you know you are right because you have spotted the subtlety and know for sure that your selected answer corresponds to the correct one. Take a particularly good candidate who knows he is right about 10 questions and then relays these to a friend who has a good memory. There can easily be an element of discussion and at least a little help gained from discussion - as I say when unis give importance to every mark, this deception could prove to be eventually significant.

However it is the final point which I feel most strongly about (it has now become, stongly interrelated with the first). GCSE and A-Level exams are conducted as are the BMAT and HAT exams at various points in the year (November, January, May, and June) in schools and colleges across the country, and if LNAT teamed up with an exam board or UCAS even,(or charged £45 for the exam :p: ) then surely it would be possible to arrange one or perhaps at most 2 sittings of the test in normal test centres. Candidates who find their future degree admissions process "inconvenient" would have to live with it, GCSE's, A-Levels, University Interviews do not tend to be moved if a candidate cannot attend. Hence, I cannot see why the LNAT could not follow suit. Furthermore with proper timetabling, and as the system improves year on year, candidates will not miss the date if their future relies on it.

I most certainly do appreciate that LNAT and the universities associated have considered the situation in great detail, but would it not be possible to get a survey to candidates or something along those lines and consider re-reform as it were. I do understand the logistical benefits of having it as it is (i.e. overseas students etc.) although there is no necessity to have test centres in the remote parts of the UK, candidates should be able to travel to where they would normally sit their A-Level/GCSE exams.

----
In response to previous posts, I also would like to ask whether it would have been possible to publish the results earlier than Jan 31st.
Thanks
pezz
does anyone know what lnat score oxford were asking for in order to get an interview? i was told UCL look for 16-20 minimum :rolleyes: , although a score of 16 may not always get you a place
I don't think any LNAT score would guarantee you a place at any of the participating institutions.
Onearmedbandit
I don't think any LNAT score would guarantee you a place at any of the participating institutions.


That is a valid point.
However, if you had the highest score in the UK ( as one of my friends did last year ), the rest of your application and interview would have to be fairly mediocre for Oxford to turn you down. For the record, she was not turned down and is now doing "Law with Law Studies in Europe".
fundamentally
That is a valid point.
However, if you had the highest score in the UK ( as one of my friends did last year ), the rest of your application and interview would have to be fairly mediocre for Oxford to turn you down. For the record, she was not turned down and is now doing "Law with Law Studies in Europe".
Maybe, but lots of the LNAT unis don't interview so if you had dodgish A-level grades/GCSEs you could still get rejected even with a good LNAT score. Depends on how important the particular institution consider the LNAT to be.

Oh well, this year's test is still much better than last year's.
John Gardner

different? says "Personally I sometimes felt that it could be one of two answers sometimes and that with an arguement to back up a point either could be seen as valid."

There is only ever one correct answer. When another answer seems possible, the explanation is that it is very nearly correct but not quite. We are testing your ability to draw very fine distinctions. If two answerss both seem right you have not yet drawn a fine enough distinction. Why should you get some credit for not being very good at the very task that the question is designed to assess?


Surely the whole point when studying law it to be able to see other interpretations and use whichever one best fits your arguement, therefore the 'correct' answer could vary depending on context and personal opinion.

In any case I strongly agree with pineapple_face: ' In response, could it not be argued then that there should be some distinction drawn between answers which are nearly correct and those which are plainly erroneous? For example, each response, assume there are four, could be graded on a scale. Perhaps 5 for a correct answer and 3 for the second best. This would perhaps enable the paper to distinguish between candidates who are 'getting there' and those who are struggling (guessing) answers.


For if some answers are better than others, surely selecting one of these answers should merit some credit over selecting an answer which is patently erroneous.'