English Oxbridge interview text discussion
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oh and thought I’d try a little analysis on the Rossetti poem as no-one else has put up any thoughts about it yet, and I’ve not seen it before.
Remember-
Title is mirrored in the opening line of the poem; this suggests remembrance as the title is recalled in the main body of the poem. Could be seen as an imperative command to the reader, but there is no specific event attached to the title- about remembrance in general?
Remember me when I am gone away,
Gone far away into the silent land;
Near-anadiplosis of ‘gone away/gone far away’ to emphasise distance; distance from one line of poem to next? Use of future tense, not conditional- death is certain. Silent land- quasi-religious concept. Not Christian- hearks back to Ancient Greek ideas of the afterlife for most people as essentially a place of greyness rather than joy. Definite article- ‘the’ silent land. One, specific place.
When you can no more hold me by the hand,
Nor I half turn to go yet turning stay.
When she has lost physical form- no more physical contact. Who is she addressing? A lover or acquaintance/a more general plea to be remembered after death- timor mortis. Motion of half turning mirrored by anastrophe of second line as ‘stay’ is left to the end of the line and the reader is left unsure what is happening until this final line.
Remember me when no more day by day
You tell me of our future that you plann'd:
Regular diacope of ‘remember me’- insistence. Desperation? The planned future cannot be, as narrator of the poem knows they are dying. ‘our’ future- shared, yet person addressed planned it. great intimacy.
Only remember me; you understand
It will be late to counsel then or pray.
‘only’ remember me- repetition for the third time shows clear desperation, especially as ‘only’ is introduced- if the addressed person can do nothing else, they should remember. Also, she is asking them to do nothing else, ‘only’ remember’- this is the most important thing to her. ‘late’ but not ‘too late’- she will try anything to escape death, even late in the day.
Yet if you should forget me for a while
And afterwards remember, do not grieve:
change of rhymes comes with ‘yet’- change of focus. Permitting person addressed some room for error! Conditional for first time- ‘should’- moving into uncertainties. She does not know if person addressed will remember or forget her. They should ‘not grieve’ for forgetting- she says nothing about grieving for her.
For if the darkness and corruption leave
A vestige of the thoughts that once I had,
Better by far you should forget and smile
Than that you should remember and be sad
a release at the end- acceptable to ‘forget’. Closes on simple, monosyllabic ‘sad’- juxtaposition with equally simple ‘smile’. Ultimately a simple dichotomy; dark or light, life or death, smiles or sadness. ‘by far’ better that the person addressed goes free than that they are shackled by grief. Title of ‘remember’ suggests an imperative demand for remembrance, and indeed she has asked for this throughout, but in this final section she suggests that the best way for her to be commemorated is through the person addressed forgetting her, if this is the only way for him/her to achieve closure (horrible pseudo-psychoanalytical way of putting it I know)
Remember-
Title is mirrored in the opening line of the poem; this suggests remembrance as the title is recalled in the main body of the poem. Could be seen as an imperative command to the reader, but there is no specific event attached to the title- about remembrance in general?
Remember me when I am gone away,
Gone far away into the silent land;
Near-anadiplosis of ‘gone away/gone far away’ to emphasise distance; distance from one line of poem to next? Use of future tense, not conditional- death is certain. Silent land- quasi-religious concept. Not Christian- hearks back to Ancient Greek ideas of the afterlife for most people as essentially a place of greyness rather than joy. Definite article- ‘the’ silent land. One, specific place.
When you can no more hold me by the hand,
Nor I half turn to go yet turning stay.
When she has lost physical form- no more physical contact. Who is she addressing? A lover or acquaintance/a more general plea to be remembered after death- timor mortis. Motion of half turning mirrored by anastrophe of second line as ‘stay’ is left to the end of the line and the reader is left unsure what is happening until this final line.
Remember me when no more day by day
You tell me of our future that you plann'd:
Regular diacope of ‘remember me’- insistence. Desperation? The planned future cannot be, as narrator of the poem knows they are dying. ‘our’ future- shared, yet person addressed planned it. great intimacy.
Only remember me; you understand
It will be late to counsel then or pray.
‘only’ remember me- repetition for the third time shows clear desperation, especially as ‘only’ is introduced- if the addressed person can do nothing else, they should remember. Also, she is asking them to do nothing else, ‘only’ remember’- this is the most important thing to her. ‘late’ but not ‘too late’- she will try anything to escape death, even late in the day.
Yet if you should forget me for a while
And afterwards remember, do not grieve:
change of rhymes comes with ‘yet’- change of focus. Permitting person addressed some room for error! Conditional for first time- ‘should’- moving into uncertainties. She does not know if person addressed will remember or forget her. They should ‘not grieve’ for forgetting- she says nothing about grieving for her.
For if the darkness and corruption leave
A vestige of the thoughts that once I had,
Better by far you should forget and smile
Than that you should remember and be sad
a release at the end- acceptable to ‘forget’. Closes on simple, monosyllabic ‘sad’- juxtaposition with equally simple ‘smile’. Ultimately a simple dichotomy; dark or light, life or death, smiles or sadness. ‘by far’ better that the person addressed goes free than that they are shackled by grief. Title of ‘remember’ suggests an imperative demand for remembrance, and indeed she has asked for this throughout, but in this final section she suggests that the best way for her to be commemorated is through the person addressed forgetting her, if this is the only way for him/her to achieve closure (horrible pseudo-psychoanalytical way of putting it I know)
Original post by JF24
A point to remember - when you're practicing for the ELAT make sure you remember to try to link the unseen works together; it's all very well being able to do a good close analysis, but it would be good practice to try and draw together your ideas into a comparative argument.
On another note, seasider, you might want to have a re-read of 'Afterwards'. You seem to have taken it at face value!
On another note, seasider, you might want to have a re-read of 'Afterwards'. You seem to have taken it at face value!
I believe the texts in the ELAT always follow a set theme? So the comparisons will mainly be based on how the theme is presented, how language is used, etc?
I'm blithely assuming that it will be fairly similar to the AQA AS English language exam, where you are presented with a set of texts and have to show the various links between them whilst also showing awareness of their differences and how context effects them
Original post by don_lad_
When/how does one submit an essay? How long should it be? Is it done through school? Will UCAS prompt me on it? Any answers to this panicked string of questions would be heartily appreciated.
Candidates are required to submit one recent example of writing, by 10 November 2011. This should be a marked essay produced in the normal course of your school or college work and should not have been rewritten after marking. Preferably it should be an analytical discussion of a topic or topics in the field of English literature though an English language topic is permissible. It should not be a short timed essay, critical commentary on particular passages of text (practical criticism exercises), or piece of creative writing.
See this page for some more information: http://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate_courses/how_to_apply/written_work/written_work.html
Original post by Seasider5
Not a big fan of Browning?! Never heard of Christina Rossetti?! :0
Surely you've read Remember?
In case you haven't:
Remember
Remember me when I am gone away,
Iambic pentameter is the favoured medium by which most poetry is written, and clearly serves a number of purposes. In this sense, it has a moderate rhythm to it; it is neither too fast and snappy, nor too slow and excessively poignant. In this sense, Rossetti's meter reflects the tone and ideology of the poem; it is not an elegy, because she uses the future tense, which would render a slower meter somewhat disparate from the tone, but nor is it a particularly upbeat poem, hence a faster meter would be somewhat incongruous as well. In short, the meter used reflects the ponderous, reflective nature of the poem. The comma closing the sentence slows down our reading of the poem, adding further emphasis to the opening line. The imperative verb used ('Remember me') illustrates nicely the contrast between the ponderous ideas purported in the poem, and the desire to be remembered that pervades humanity. Rossetti's protagonist is in no doubt about her desire to be remembered after death - or so it seems.
Gone far away into the silent land;
The opening sentences are clearly designed to resonate with the reader, and the use of syntax reflects this; through using mostly monosyllabic or disyllabic lexis, the sentence has a flow and softness that reflects the perceived desire to be remembered, conflicting with the uncertainty over what follows, best represented through the ambiguous adjective choice 'silent'. There is something inherently irreligious about that portrayal of death - if this poem is designed to represent death; a religious poem would not present an afterlife in this way; far more positive imagery would have been invoked. Simply through the lexical choice 'silent', one is able to gain a faint idea of the religious convictions of Rossetti's protagonist.
When you can no more hold me by the hand,
The ideas evoked here give the reader the sense that the poem is serving as a personal address to a significant other in the life of the protagonist. What they are afraid of is the loss of a physical touch - it is especially significant that the action is the holding of a hand; holding hands is a renowned symbol of intimacy, and hence we can conclude that one of the chief losses that the protagonist is afraid of is the loss of intimacy, and of human interaction.
Nor I half turn to go yet turning stay.
I think that this can be interpreted as a continuation of the religious undercurrent to the poem, insofar as it persists with the suggestion of religious doubt. Yes, it is part of our nature to be afraid of death - but the promise of salvation sweetens the blow. The action of 'half-turning' is one that is racked with doubt and indecision, and this nervous half-turn symbolises the inability to decide between an afterlife the protagonist seems to harbour doubts over, and the overwhelming desire to stay; that the doubt is inherent is represented further by the end-stopped line and emphatic placement of 'stay'; their instinct is to remain in this world, rather than depart from it.
Remember me when no more day by day
The constant diacope of 'remember me' illustrates the desperation infiltrating the protagonist. The alternative - to forget - is, at this stage, not acknowledged, and this highlights the fears that humans have surrounding death. The use of anastrophe can be construed as presenting to the reader the disturbed (for want of a better word) train of thought resulting from the prospect of not being there 'day-to-day', exemplifying our fears over the loss of existence 'day to day'.
You tell me of our future that you plann'd:
The poem discusses the numerous fears we harbour surrounding death, and here is another one presented starkly; the loss of a future. Yet again, it is telling that no future is forseen; for the protagonist, the end is merely the end.
Only remember me; you understand
The same theme recurs again and again; the constant diacope of 'remember me' highlights the basic urge of our elevated consciousness - to be remembered. That we are conscious of our existence makes it all the more difficult to accept that our consciousness is gone.
It will be late to counsel then or pray.
More religious doubt. Consolation (i.e. counsel) and prayer are useless in their eyes, and the end-stopped line illustrates the certainty of the statement that, once gone, no help is possible. It is truly the end. The choice of verbs is also telling here. 'Counsel' and 'prayer' are bastions of solidity in religious life, and they represent, to an extent, the role of religion. Rejecting counsel and prayer is symbolic of the rejection of religion and an afterlife.
Yet if you should forget me for a while
It has taken until now for the binary of 'remember' to be acknowledged; that is, to forget. Clearly our protagonist is now adopting the role of philosopher, rather than a device to lend the poem poignancy. Of course, you could argue that the base desire is still there (not to be forgotten), represented in the lexical choices 'for a while' - they are still dismayed at the prospect of being forgotten permanently. The enjambment in this couplet (this line and the following) imply that the period of forgetting is nothing more than an interlude between being remembered, and this mirrors the desires of the protagonist.
And afterwards remember, do not grieve:
For if the darkness and corruption leave
A vestige of the thoughts that once I had,
This is a fascinating inversion of what one is led to expect from Rossetti. The adjectives used here 'darkness and corruption' are what leaves memory, in her eyes 'A vestige'. The vestige is caused by darkness and corruption, and this could be interpreted as Rossetti suggesting that the ghostly, intangible memories of our departed are caused by 'corruption' - that is, they are unnatural.
Better by far you should forget and smile
The poem deals with dichotomies and binaries, no more so than that of forgetting and remembering, and the final couplet provides a succinct reminder of this. However, the emphatic placement of words at the end of the line and poem cause the effect of inverting our expectations. To be forgotten is expected to invoke sadness, and vice versa. Rossetti inverts our expectations through this emphatic placement, and in doing so sums up the ethos of the poem - that life on earth is unsustainable, and therefore it is futile to 'remember and be sad' - that is, to dwell on what is lost - or, as J.K. Rowling may have put it, 'It does not do to dwell on dreams and forget to live'. Again, the anastrophe on the penultimate line 'better by far' draws attention to this ethos and implants it in the mind of the reader. At the end of the day, sure, it's good to be remembered, but one has to remember the transience of life and it does more honour to the departed to 'forget and smile' than 'remember and be sad'.
Than that you should remember and be sad.
Surely you've read Remember?
In case you haven't:
Remember
Remember me when I am gone away,
Iambic pentameter is the favoured medium by which most poetry is written, and clearly serves a number of purposes. In this sense, it has a moderate rhythm to it; it is neither too fast and snappy, nor too slow and excessively poignant. In this sense, Rossetti's meter reflects the tone and ideology of the poem; it is not an elegy, because she uses the future tense, which would render a slower meter somewhat disparate from the tone, but nor is it a particularly upbeat poem, hence a faster meter would be somewhat incongruous as well. In short, the meter used reflects the ponderous, reflective nature of the poem. The comma closing the sentence slows down our reading of the poem, adding further emphasis to the opening line. The imperative verb used ('Remember me') illustrates nicely the contrast between the ponderous ideas purported in the poem, and the desire to be remembered that pervades humanity. Rossetti's protagonist is in no doubt about her desire to be remembered after death - or so it seems.
Gone far away into the silent land;
The opening sentences are clearly designed to resonate with the reader, and the use of syntax reflects this; through using mostly monosyllabic or disyllabic lexis, the sentence has a flow and softness that reflects the perceived desire to be remembered, conflicting with the uncertainty over what follows, best represented through the ambiguous adjective choice 'silent'. There is something inherently irreligious about that portrayal of death - if this poem is designed to represent death; a religious poem would not present an afterlife in this way; far more positive imagery would have been invoked. Simply through the lexical choice 'silent', one is able to gain a faint idea of the religious convictions of Rossetti's protagonist.
When you can no more hold me by the hand,
The ideas evoked here give the reader the sense that the poem is serving as a personal address to a significant other in the life of the protagonist. What they are afraid of is the loss of a physical touch - it is especially significant that the action is the holding of a hand; holding hands is a renowned symbol of intimacy, and hence we can conclude that one of the chief losses that the protagonist is afraid of is the loss of intimacy, and of human interaction.
Nor I half turn to go yet turning stay.
I think that this can be interpreted as a continuation of the religious undercurrent to the poem, insofar as it persists with the suggestion of religious doubt. Yes, it is part of our nature to be afraid of death - but the promise of salvation sweetens the blow. The action of 'half-turning' is one that is racked with doubt and indecision, and this nervous half-turn symbolises the inability to decide between an afterlife the protagonist seems to harbour doubts over, and the overwhelming desire to stay; that the doubt is inherent is represented further by the end-stopped line and emphatic placement of 'stay'; their instinct is to remain in this world, rather than depart from it.
Remember me when no more day by day
The constant diacope of 'remember me' illustrates the desperation infiltrating the protagonist. The alternative - to forget - is, at this stage, not acknowledged, and this highlights the fears that humans have surrounding death. The use of anastrophe can be construed as presenting to the reader the disturbed (for want of a better word) train of thought resulting from the prospect of not being there 'day-to-day', exemplifying our fears over the loss of existence 'day to day'.
You tell me of our future that you plann'd:
The poem discusses the numerous fears we harbour surrounding death, and here is another one presented starkly; the loss of a future. Yet again, it is telling that no future is forseen; for the protagonist, the end is merely the end.
Only remember me; you understand
The same theme recurs again and again; the constant diacope of 'remember me' highlights the basic urge of our elevated consciousness - to be remembered. That we are conscious of our existence makes it all the more difficult to accept that our consciousness is gone.
It will be late to counsel then or pray.
More religious doubt. Consolation (i.e. counsel) and prayer are useless in their eyes, and the end-stopped line illustrates the certainty of the statement that, once gone, no help is possible. It is truly the end. The choice of verbs is also telling here. 'Counsel' and 'prayer' are bastions of solidity in religious life, and they represent, to an extent, the role of religion. Rejecting counsel and prayer is symbolic of the rejection of religion and an afterlife.
Yet if you should forget me for a while
It has taken until now for the binary of 'remember' to be acknowledged; that is, to forget. Clearly our protagonist is now adopting the role of philosopher, rather than a device to lend the poem poignancy. Of course, you could argue that the base desire is still there (not to be forgotten), represented in the lexical choices 'for a while' - they are still dismayed at the prospect of being forgotten permanently. The enjambment in this couplet (this line and the following) imply that the period of forgetting is nothing more than an interlude between being remembered, and this mirrors the desires of the protagonist.
And afterwards remember, do not grieve:
For if the darkness and corruption leave
A vestige of the thoughts that once I had,
This is a fascinating inversion of what one is led to expect from Rossetti. The adjectives used here 'darkness and corruption' are what leaves memory, in her eyes 'A vestige'. The vestige is caused by darkness and corruption, and this could be interpreted as Rossetti suggesting that the ghostly, intangible memories of our departed are caused by 'corruption' - that is, they are unnatural.
Better by far you should forget and smile
The poem deals with dichotomies and binaries, no more so than that of forgetting and remembering, and the final couplet provides a succinct reminder of this. However, the emphatic placement of words at the end of the line and poem cause the effect of inverting our expectations. To be forgotten is expected to invoke sadness, and vice versa. Rossetti inverts our expectations through this emphatic placement, and in doing so sums up the ethos of the poem - that life on earth is unsustainable, and therefore it is futile to 'remember and be sad' - that is, to dwell on what is lost - or, as J.K. Rowling may have put it, 'It does not do to dwell on dreams and forget to live'. Again, the anastrophe on the penultimate line 'better by far' draws attention to this ethos and implants it in the mind of the reader. At the end of the day, sure, it's good to be remembered, but one has to remember the transience of life and it does more honour to the departed to 'forget and smile' than 'remember and be sad'.
Than that you should remember and be sad.
Some more analysis.Original post by KingMessi Some more analysis.
Some more analysis.very good analysis- your really good at looking at the text closely!!
Original post by coodooloo
very good analysis- your really good at looking at the text closely!!
Thank you.
I want to try and do a lot of work about learning stuff relating to symbolism, references that are more subtle etc though - hopefully it'll pay off...Original post by lozvegas
Okay I have a question... to what extent do we have to focus on the theme that links the text together (e.g. fathers on the sample paper)? And does our analysis have to be on how the authors focus on this theme?
I think that the theme is used quite broadly and just to give you a basis to compare. I think as a close-reader you have the given option to choose a particular area that interests you and leads you to discuss your interpretation of the broad theme. I personally find the theme quite useful otherwise I'm a headless chicken. However- it is important to note that the theme is of less important in comparison to the very close detail within your analysis. I hope this makes some sense.
Nice analysis of Rosetti! Just joined student room, and will be taking ELAT in Nov. Not a little nervous. There seems to be a general consensus on preparing by practising analysing poems which I think I'm going to do too - Though admittedly I am yet to start. Has anyone had a go on the sample paper?
Original post by isaacln
Nice analysis of Rosetti! Just joined student room, and will be taking ELAT in Nov. Not a little nervous. There seems to be a general consensus on preparing by practising analysing poems which I think I'm going to do too - Though admittedly I am yet to start. Has anyone had a go on the sample paper?
Having a go on Friday...
Original post by coodooloo
I think that the theme is used quite broadly and just to give you a basis to compare. I think as a close-reader you have the given option to choose a particular area that interests you and leads you to discuss your interpretation of the broad theme. I personally find the theme quite useful otherwise I'm a headless chicken. However- it is important to note that the theme is of less important in comparison to the very close detail within your analysis. I hope this makes some sense.
I hope you liked my dancing banana! the joys of looking through the emotions!
Original post by KingMessi
Having a go on Friday...
Good luck for tomorrow! And when I say 'Not a little nervous' I mean I'm not a little nervous - I'm very nervous! Have you done much prep or just seeing how the sample goes first?
Brilliant thread!
My A2 literature coursework is a comparison of 3 texts arguing about presentation of love as madness, but I've mentioned 2 of them in my personal statement... However, I do consider it to be my best piece of work. Should I send it off or painstakingly write another one? Bit concerned over this
My A2 literature coursework is a comparison of 3 texts arguing about presentation of love as madness, but I've mentioned 2 of them in my personal statement... However, I do consider it to be my best piece of work. Should I send it off or painstakingly write another one? Bit concerned over this
Original post by KingMessi
Is anyone sending their AS coursework for the essay to submit? I'm deciding between that or a class essay from this [A2] year
Original post by Expendable
Is anyone sending their AS coursework for the essay to submit? I'm deciding between that or a class essay from this [A2] year
not allowed to submit coursework!
Original post by don_lad_
not allowed to submit coursework!
Where does it say this? This is all I found, and I'd have thought that 'produced in the normal course of your school work" actually suggests that coursework is a sensible option? Or am I missing something?
"This should be a marked essay produced in the normal course of your school or college work and should not have been rewritten after marking. Preferably it should be an analytical discussion of a topic or topics in the field of English literature though an English language topic is permissible. It should not be a short timed essay, critical commentary on particular passages of text (practical criticism exercises), or piece of creative writing."
Original post by don_lad_
Original post by don_lad_
not allowed to submit coursework!
I've always thought you can
Original post by don_lad_
not allowed to submit coursework!
You can submit your coursework- In fact, I think the majority of the people who apply do!
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