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UK Medical School International Applicants Discussion Megathread 2012 entry

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Original post by magichearts
For foundation years 1+2 you will need a Tier 4 visa which will be sponsored by UKFPO. Afterwards you will need a Tier 2 visa where the NHS Trust that you'll be working at will to be your sponsor.

From my research and asking consultants and recruiters...they say that as long as you are fit for the job...they don't see why they would take a less qualified British doctor as we all graduated from a UK medical school. I think the best advice is to keep your options open and not have any expectations. Just make sure you work hard during medical school. :smile:


Are they able to differentiate us, from the application? Like they might feel tht if it is so, tht it will be easier to take a British doctor as they will not need to apply for visa and all those formalities.


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Original post by areyouthere?
Are they able to differentiate us, from the application? Like they might feel tht if it is so, tht it will be easier to take a British doctor as they will not need to apply for visa and all those formalities.


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I'm fairly sure the consultant who does the hiring/interviews don't really care about the tough job for the admins to get you a visa (and I'm sure it isn't that strenuous of a job either way). If they want you to work for them they will take you. I remember one consultant telling me that he has no business with work visas - he's just there to do the hiring and interviewing.

Either way I have met quite a few IMG doctors working as general surgeons, orthopods, etc and these are quite competitive fields, which leads me to think that as a UK graduate and you are suitable for the job and the most qualified one - a work visa should not prevent you from getting the job (unless you've got some dodgy background or something...............:eek: )
Original post by .eXe
Hey I am a little confused. Don't we already have a tier 4 visa during medical school? Does that one end when med school ends? And then we have to reapply to get it back for foundation years?

I was under the impression that tier 4 ends at med school and then we apply for tier 1/2 (not sure which one) once we are able to secure a job.

Also, someone was telling me it's a bit of a catch 22 situation in that you need a visa to get a job, but you need a job to get a visa.

How does it work :confused:



Original post by apple17
Based on reading, I am a bit confused (do we need to apply for tier 1/2 visa) post-foundation years and during specialty (GP etc) programmes?



Original post by snooopp
You would need to apply for a tier 4 visa when you start your FY - there's a lot of information for internationals on the foundation programme site, go and have a read :smile:



Original post by cat-lover
Hello. :smile:

I’m an international student hoping to get in to medicine. I was just wondering whether or not we’re allowed to specialize in the UK. Some posts I’ve read said we are and some say we aren’t. I’ve tried looking for a proper thread but I can’t find one. Are international students allowed to continue learning after the undergraduate course? I know it probably is a stupid question but I’d like to clarify this. If we’re not, things are made a little difficult for me. I’m not sure if doing the undergraduate course at a UK medical school rather than at an overseas university makes a difference. I guess my question is would I immediately be sent back to my own country after I’m done with the undergraduate course?



okay - from my understanding of reading through various pdfs (the ones from UKBA and some parlimentary transcripts available online - yeah... I spent a good deal of time), this is what I take to be true:

a) as it stands, you complete your FYs under Tier 4 - Postgraduate Doctor or Dentist. You apply to renew your visa at the end of your Year 5/6, where you should have already secured a place. The Resident Labour Market Test is waived in this case, as this is more of a academic job, rather than one for personal financial gains. Also, they also have to allow this as only the completion of FY1 grants GMC Registration, which in turn is necessary in many nations to get a valid license. This includes various SEA nations. I am not so certain about ECFMG cert tho.

b) After the successful completion of FYs, you will most likely not be able to stay. There is no set Visa restrictions per se, but the rule is you have to satisfy the Resident Labour Market Test. This is a test where if there are people with your abilities available who possess EU Citizenship, you cannot be sponsored. You need a sponsor to sponsor a visa, and they need to provide documents showing that they have tried to recruit EU nationals with the same abilities as you, the non-EEA did. It'll be highly unlikely that you'll be able to pass this test, as far as I'm aware, since the UK, being an English speaking nation, has tons of EU docs flocking to it at the moment.

c) Only those who are currently on their FY1/2 Programs, on a Tier 4 visa may apply to transition to Tier 2 without RLMT being needed. This is due to the promises and immigration statuses made years back, which politically have to be upheld, I believe.

d) The majority of IMGs over in the UK have been there a long time, before the UK opened tons of med schools, and there are enough UK/EU docs to fill up positions currently (a surplus even)

e) In short, you can't specialize in the UK. Or that's as far as I can understand with some conversations with seniors, and docs.

*disclaimer: don't take my words as being the absolute truth tho. If you really wanna be sure, perhaps seek legal counsel from the countless number of lawyers in the UK. :smile:
(edited 11 years ago)
Reply 1063
Original post by hslakaal
~


Thank you sir, much appreciated.
I'm not an international but I was always curious as to what happened to the international med graduates. If you can't apply for F1 or train post F1&F2 completion in the UK- what happens? Does your own country view you as a 'foreign student'? Are you required to sit their licensing exams i.e. the USMLE for the United States etc in order to practice. Those exams are very costly and difficult.
(edited 11 years ago)
Reply 1065
Original post by fallenangel
I'm not an international but I was always curious as to what happened to the international med graduates. If you can't apply for F1 or train post F1&F2 completion in the UK- what happens? Does your own country view you as a 'foreign student'? Are you required to sit their licensing exams i.e. the USMLE for the United States etc in order to practice.


Well we can do F1/2. We just can't specialize (or don't have a high likelihood of specializing).

For Canadians at least, we are treated fairly equally to Canadian grads but of course they do get priority over us. Basically, if we want a decent chance of getting a training spot back home, we have to be pretty much near the top of our med school class. Doing some electives back home also helps out.
Original post by .eXe
Well we can do F1/2. We just can't specialize (or don't have a high likelihood of specializing).

For Canadians at least, we are treated fairly equally to Canadian grads but of course they do get priority over us. Basically, if we want a decent chance of getting a training spot back home, we have to be pretty much near the top of our med school class. Doing some electives back home also helps out.


So once you graduate with the 'MBBS/MBChB' and complete foundation training you're good to apply for training posts/practice in Canada?
Reply 1067
Original post by fallenangel
So once you graduate with the 'MBBS/MBChB' and complete foundation training you're good to apply for training posts/practice in Canada?


Yep. The North American system is different than UK in that the positions we are eligible for are highly dependent on how we do on the exam (MCCEE). So we just have to write that exam beforehand..it's the same one that Canadian grads write so it's nothing extra.
Thanks everyone! :smile:
I would prefer to specialise in uk before returning. :frown:


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Original post by hslakaal
okay - from my understanding of reading through various pdfs (the ones from UKBA and some parlimentary transcripts available online - yeah... I spent a good deal of time), this is what I take to be true:

a) as it stands, you complete your FYs under Tier 4 - Postgraduate Doctor or Dentist. You apply to renew your visa at the end of your Year 5/6, where you should have already secured a place. The Resident Labour Market Test is waived in this case, as this is more of a academic job, rather than one for personal financial gains. Also, they also have to allow this as only the completion of FY1 grants GMC Registration, which in turn is necessary in many nations to get a valid license. This includes various SEA nations. I am not so certain about ECFMG cert tho.

b) After the successful completion of FYs, you will most likely not be able to stay. There is no set Visa restrictions per se, but the rule is you have to satisfy the Resident Labour Market Test. This is a test where if there are people with your abilities available who possess EU Citizenship, you cannot be sponsored. You need a sponsor to sponsor a visa, and they need to provide documents showing that they have tried to recruit EU nationals with the same abilities as you, the non-EEA did. It'll be highly unlikely that you'll be able to pass this test, as far as I'm aware, since the UK, being an English speaking nation, has tons of EU docs flocking to it at the moment.

c) Only those who are currently on their FY1/2 Programs, on a Tier 4 visa may apply to transition to Tier 2 without RLMT being needed. This is due to the promises and immigration statuses made years back, which politically have to be upheld, I believe.

d) The majority of IMGs over in the UK have been there a long time, before the UK opened tons of med schools, and there are enough UK/EU docs to fill up positions currently (a surplus even)

e) In short, you can't specialize in the UK. Or that's as far as I can understand with some conversations with seniors, and docs.

*disclaimer: don't take my words as being the absolute truth tho. If you really wanna be sure, perhaps seek legal counsel from the countless number of lawyers in the UK. :smile:



From UKBA:

You do not need to complete a resident labour market test if:


the gross annual salary package for the job will be £150,000 or above;

the migrant will be sponsored as a doctor in speciality training and their salary and the costs of their training are being met by the government of another country under an agreement with that country and the UK government;

the migrant currently has permission to stay in the UK as a Tier 4 migrant or as a student and they have received final results confirming that they have passed and will be (or have been) awarded:
- a UK recognised bachelor or postgraduate degree; or
- a UK postgraduate certificate in education; or
- they have completed a minimum of 12 months study in the UK
towards a UK PhD.





This also explains specializing in the UK: http://www.mmc.nhs.uk/specialty_training/specialty_training_2012/overseas_applicants/guidance_for_overseas_applican.aspx

You are a non-UK or non-EEA national, you graduated from a UK medical or dental school, your immigration status currently entitles you to work in the Foundation Programme and where you would have previously been eligible for Tier 1 (PSW). You will need to apply for Tier 2 sponsorship, but you will be exempt from the Resident Labour Market Test (RLMT) in this instance.


I am fairly certain international students who have graduated from a UK medical school can specialize in the UK. I actually know a few international students who stayed to specialize. I also just recently met a girl who just got into the general surgery training who did her degree in England and is from Singapore.
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by magichearts
From UKBA:



This also explains specializing in the UK: http://www.mmc.nhs.uk/specialty_training/specialty_training_2012/overseas_applicants/guidance_for_overseas_applican.aspx



I am fairly certain international students who have graduated from a UK medical school can specialize in the UK. I actually know a few international students who stayed to specialize. I also just recently met a girl who just got into the general surgery training who did her degree in England and is from Singapore.


"the migrant currently has permission to stay in the UK as a Tier 4 migrant or as a student and they have received final results confirming that they have passed and will be (or have been) awarded:
- a UK recognised bachelor or postgraduate degree; or
- a UK postgraduate certificate in education; or
- they have completed a minimum of 12 months study in the UK
towards a UK PhD"

Don't worry. I read that part too, and had my hopes up too.

But...
This is referring to, as you've seen, people who have graduated already. You and I, on the other hand, have 5 years ahead of us, before we even satisfy the first condition. The rules above will not, most likely apply to us. There is an oversupply of docs vs posts, so it'll definitely change for the worse, and we won't be able to stay.
Original post by hslakaal
"the migrant currently has permission to stay in the UK as a Tier 4 migrant or as a student and they have received final results confirming that they have passed and will be (or have been) awarded:
- a UK recognised bachelor or postgraduate degree; or
- a UK postgraduate certificate in education; or
- they have completed a minimum of 12 months study in the UK
towards a UK PhD"

Don't worry. I read that part too, and had my hopes up too.

But...
This is referring to, as you've seen, people who have graduated already. You and I, on the other hand, have 5 years ahead of us, before we even satisfy the first condition. The rules above will not, most likely apply to us. There is an oversupply of docs vs posts, so it'll definitely change for the worse, and we won't be able to stay.


If you look at the mmc link that I have in my post - it seems fairly clear we are eligible for specialty training and exempt from RLMT and this is recent 2012 guidelines. I personally don't see it changing any time soon. I have also spoken to UKFPO people and they have provided guidance on this matter and have confirmed that we will still be eligible for specialty training and they too do not see it changing. If there are plans to change - I'm pretty sure BMA would've been on top of this ages ago as they have been on top of other immigration issues not too long ago.

At the end of the day it is your word versus my word. All I can say what is out there now at this current time is saying "Yes we can specialize." Neither you or I can see the future so there is no point in speculating things other than state current facts and hope for the best.
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by magichearts
If you look at the mmc link that I have in my post - it seems fairly clear we are eligible for specialty training and exempt from RLMT and this is recent 2012 guidelines. I personally don't see it changing any time soon. I have also spoken to UKFPO people and they have provided guidance on this matter and have confirmed that we will still be eligible for specialty training and they too do not dsee it changing. If there are plans to change - I'm pretty sure BMA would've been on top of this ages ago as they have been on top of other immigration issues not too long ago.

At the end of the day it is your word versus my word. All I can say what is out there now at this current time is saying "Yes we can specialize." Neither you or I can see the future so there is no point in speculating things other than state current facts and hope for the best.


Yeap. There are contrasting statements various authorities. Don't forget, the nhs doesn't handle immigration.

It'd be silly to assume you can stay however, as you know :smile:
Original post by hslakaal
Yeap. There are contrasting statements various authorities. Don't forget, the nhs doesn't handle immigration.

It'd be silly to assume you can stay however, as you know :smile:


We'll be allowed to stay for both fy1 and fy2 though, right? Or is it only fy1?


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Reply 1075
Original post by areyouthere?
We'll be allowed to stay for both fy1 and fy2 though, right? Or is it only fy1?


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I believe you can get it for FY2 as well if you can get your Visa extended, after that though...
Reply 1076
Original post by hslakaal
Yeap. There are contrasting statements various authorities. Don't forget, the nhs doesn't handle immigration.

It'd be silly to assume you can stay however, as you know :smile:


Basically my take on this:

Just hope for the best because no clue about the future guidelines. For all we know, by 2017, Internationals may be allowed to stay and tier 1 can come back. In the mean time, prep for the possibility of moving away by getting clinical rotations/internships/experience in both canada and US (well at least for me/the North Americans).
Overseas doctors with indefinite leave to remain (settled status) and those whose immigration status entitles them to work without restriction in the UK are eligible to apply for specialty training programmes and will be considered on an equal basis with UK and EEA nationals. Other non-UK or non-EEA nationals with limited leave to remain in the UK and whose employment will require a Tier 2 sponsorship, are subject to the Resident Labour Market Test (RLMT) but are still able to apply and be assessed for a GP training programme in the first recruitment round. The Resident Labour Market Test means that such doctors can only be made an offer of a training programme if there are no suitable UK or EEA national candidates. This is unlikely to be the case in popular competitive deaneries such as London, Northern Ireland and others.

^ I'm guessing overseas doctors means us internationals? I could be dead wrong, these things confuse me so much. What I don't get is the last 2 sentences..does that mean if we finish the undergraduate medicine course that we can only get into a GP training programme if there are no UK or EEA national candidates? If that is the case, would that mean there's a chance we'd have wasted our time and money for the 5 year undergraduate medicine course and can't practice as a doctor? I know there are loads of people that can go back to their own country to specialize or go through a GP training program, but unfortunately I'm not one of them so I need to clarify this. :/ Everything I've said could be completely wrong so please correct me if I'm wrong.
Hi guys,

I'm an international student from Singapore, just graduated with my IB diploma (41 points with 7,6,6 in English, Chem, Bio HLs). I know it's going extremely tough for me to get into medicine in the UK cause of the quota on international students...but just how tough is it? is it still worth applying ? :frown:
Reply 1079
Original post by skennymtyler
Hi guys,

I'm an international student from Singapore, just graduated with my IB diploma (41 points with 7,6,6 in English, Chem, Bio HLs). I know it's going extremely tough for me to get into medicine in the UK cause of the quota on international students...but just how tough is it? is it still worth applying ? :frown:


Of course its worth applying! What have you got to lose? :confused:

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