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Chances of getting into Oxbridge for Masters or more

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yes - that would be because your original comment was complete ********, and does not assist the OP - applying for undergrad and postgrad places is extremely different.

Reply 21

Manellowzworth

Fair enough, it wasnt useful. I understand your point. That still doesnt provide a license to kill, particularly since the people on this site seem have knowledge centred around undergrad apps (because thats what most have experienced). Whatever, internet forum steam is the least of my concerns..

Reply 22

bikerx23

but many people here have very good knowledge of postgraduate admission, having undergone these or currently undergoing this process. Admittedly everyone who goes to university can comment on undergraduate admissions, which is why more specific questions should be left for those with the more specific knowledge of these topics, e.g., anything related to application statistics must be left for elles otherwise she will stat you to death.

Reply 23

pendragon

bikerx23

its fine giving people advice, but it happens it was all complete bollocks, therefore unhelpful and misleading. If you wished to give them well meaning advice you should have informed him of your lack of ability to assist him and wished him luck.

Is that directed at myself or Manellowzworth?

Reply 24

bikerx23

i couldn't make out where your post started so didn't read it, therefore the other guy, who I was having a conversation with.

and, couldn't resist it elles :wink:

Reply 25

pendragon

Elles

what would you take as feasible evidence for 2)? or conversely, other than anecdotes, what is the evidence for 1)?
as i mentioned previously, subject variations admittedly - but i think certain features these days (perhaps not back when you applied given you've now graduated?) provide pretty strong suggestions towards 2) WRT to the whole university:

- the little note by the scary ratios table in the prospectus stating:
You should note:
4. The admissions process for medicine is centralised so that differing ratios from one college to another have no effect on your chance of being interviewed of being offered a place.

Source - Annex E - Matrix of Subject's Admissions Procedures; Working Party on Selections & Admissions (Oxford); November 2005:

- the use of "open offers" in: Biochemistry, Biological Sciences, Chemistry, Earth Sciences, Engineering Sciences (+joint schools), Experimental Psychology/PPP, Geography, Maths / Comp Sci (+joint schools), Medicine, Physics (+joint schools) & sometimes MFL (+joint schools).

- formal data sharing mechanisms between tutors & colleges i.e. software packages/secure websites, not merely meetings/email/phone: for Biochem, Biologyical Sciences, Chem, Classics (+joint schools), Earth Sciences, E&M, Engineering Sciences (+joint schools), Exp Psych/PPP, Geography, History (+joint schools), Human Science, Law/LSE, Materials Science/MEM, Maths/Comp Sci (+joint schools), Oriental studies, PPE, Physics (+joint schools) & Theology & joint schools.

- shortlisting by overall scoring used to rank ALL candidates at subject level: Biochemistry, Earth Sciences, Exp Psych/PPP, History & JS, Law/LSE, Materials/MEM, Medicine & Theology & JS.

- redistribution of applicants from oversubscribed colleges: English & JS, Geography, History & JS, Law/LSE, Maths, MFL, Music, PPE, Physics & JS.

- subject decisions, under the guidance of the subject Organising Secretary: Biochemistry, Biological Sciences, Earth Sciences, Engineering & EEM, Exp Psych/PPP, Fine Art, Geography, History & JS, History of Art, Human Sciences, Materials/MEM, Maths & JS, Oriental Studies, Physics & JS.

- subject decisions, essentially made at departmental level: History of Art & Medicine.

- 2 independent interviews - panels not representing the same college for ALL candidates: Biochemistry, Biological Sciences, Earth Sciences, Engineering, Exp Psych/PPP, Fine Art, History of Art, Human Sciences, Materials/MEM, Maths/Comp Sci & JS, Medicine, Music, Oriental Studies, Physiological Sciences.

...is more moderate & seems entirely more sensible to the original "the smart thing is to choose your second favourite option and give yourself a better chance of getting in" to me, especially as a blanket statement on the musings of college choice irregardless of subject.

but someone has to get into your 'unwise to apply to' colleges.. :biggrin:

that interests me as a major potential flaw of the new admissions model whereby candidates choose a college after being offered a uni place. & the mechanisms they'd then need to put in place for the colleges to then select their students.. :eek:

You have made a list of sources that support your conclusion I see. Can you demonstrate how they support your conclusion? As Disraeli said there are "lies, damn lies and statistics". Given that Oxford has been trying to maintain its college-based admission system against pressure to centralise there are clear motives for them to churn out figures that support the system being fair regardless of what college applicants apply to. However, it is clearly a subjective matter. No set of numbers can quantify how individual admissions tutors at different colleges make value judgements based on personal interviews, and accordingly make their decisions on whether to accept students or pool them for further interviews. These are people who make subjective decisions and who are not infallible or always right, as is shown by people who drop out or get thirds - my admissions tutor said that even people who get 2.2s are admissions mistakes.

Changing to a centralised system obviously doesnt remove human fallibility when making such subjective judgements, but it does remove variations and improve fairness by making all subject to the value judgements of one set of people. Given the pressure from government, MPs, and the Working Party on Admissions towards centralisation it would seem I am not alone in thinking this, and should they actually go ahead and centralise admissions our debate will be over. :cool:

I just graduated this summer, so Im not out of touch, and Ive just put in applications for an Mst. at Oxford and an MPhil at Cambridge so Im quite familiar with postgraduate applications too. So fingers crossed for me and the person who started this thread. :redface:

Reply 26

pendragon

Chocca

Hi.

I am currently at a "second division" university but I am on course for a first. What are my chances of getting in?

Thanks

Personally Im in the opposite an oxford grad with a 2.1, and I think and have recieved advice from admissions tutors at my college that your degree class and average mark is highly important. Personally I think you have a better shot than me if you get a 1st, which is why Ive also applied to the States, but lets hope for some good luck for both of us. :wink:

I think with a 1st, good references (you need only two for Cambridge, three for Oxford) and a good writing sample you have a strong chance of getting in. Just be sure to write the best statement of intent/research proposal you can! :biggrin:

--------------

Elles

but someone has to get into your 'unwise to apply to' colleges.. :biggrin:

If you read my earlier post you would have seen I said good on those people who got into Christ Church, but they were lucky as well as being great candidates. I still advise against taking that kind of chance, but ultimately everybody's going to make up their own mind on the question. :smile:

Reply 27

pendragon

Elles

My sources were only two - the prospectus & an Annex to a working party report. & not statistics, alas :wink:

but just summaries of procedures.

& my suggestions were only that imho they're features that help to ensure, WRT the whole uni that "IF you choose a particular college over another it does NOT affect your chances of getting in" which is what you commented you hadn't seen any evidence for. :smile:

I think explaining how: "open offers"; formal data sharing mechanisms between tutors & colleges i.e. software packages/secure websites, not merely meetings/email/phone; shortlisting by overall scoring used to rank ALL candidates at subject level; redistribution of applicants from oversubscribed colleges; subject decisions, under the guidance of the subject Organising Secretary; subject decisions, essentially made at departmental level and 2 independent interviews - panels not representing the same college for ALL candidates; can help to eliminate the influence of college of application in receiving a university offer would have insulted your intelligence, no?

All of these corrective measures and moves towards centralisation are there for a reason, that reason being that they are there to correct a problem, or 'percieved' problem as you might argue. Despite all these correctives ultimately the decision still lies with admissions tutors at the colleges you are interviewed at, and without full centralised admissions you cannot eliminate the possibility and probability of inequality depending on college choice. However, lets neither of us insult the others intelligence, and agree to disagree on this point. :wink:

Elles

alone in thinking what..? am i against further more widespread/overtly formalised admissions centralisation? i thought my points were just that even currently there are already evolved mechanisms in place in some subjects that are definitely working to try & eliminate it completely.. & it's these that the report seems inspired by in places, especially Model B. :cool:

so TBH, general statements about choosing college with a consideration for oversubscription/popularity as an undergrad in the system as it stands do seem a tad out of touch to me.

I did my finals this summer. I helped get my sister in - she started at Hildas in October, and perhaps Hildas is the one place you will agree is easier to get into. I will also be helping my brother with his application next year and Ive just finished 10 postgrad/masters applications, including an Mst at Ox and MPhil at Cam. Perhaps the sad thing about me is how not out of touch I am :rolleyes:

As Ive already said, if you need "evolved mechanisms" to rectify the problem it is a problem, and people should be aware that they have a better chance getting into Mansfield, Pembroke or Hildas than they do to Magdalen or Christ Church. I think you would acknowledge that this is the case technically even if you believe it is totally rectified by efficient means of pooling applications to less popular or oversubscribed colleges? :wink:

Reply 28

ledders

I just skimmed this thread, so apologies if I got the wrong end of the stick...

... but if I haven't, then a lot (if not all) of you guys need to stop with the bull-sh*t. Applying to grad school at Ox is not governed by the same system as at undergrad. You apply to your course first - once accepted by the course, your choice of college is considered. If turned down by first choice college, they find you a new college. If accepted by the course then you will be allocated a college. Read the bloody prospectus before offering inane advice.

As pointed out above, Ox doesn't offer SPS at undergrad. Does Cambridge offer SPS at post-grad??? I would be very surprised. SPS is a mish-mash degree, I can't imagine anything beyond undergrad offering much in the way of 'joint schools'. Try a master's in one of the constituent subjects eg: anything in the social sciences.

You may find Nottingham Trent a little difficult to 'sell', but this will of course depend on the degree your studying.

Reply 29

Alan Smithee

Surely his/her academic references + written work would count for more than the university surely?

Reply 30

bikerx23

the academic references will be in comparison to the others on his course, but the grade of degree achieved (i.e. noting hard working ability) and work, noting quality will be deciding factors, yes.

Reply 31

Alan Smithee

bikerx23

the academic references will be in comparison to the others on his course

Do you mean if say others from his/her course AT THAT UNI applied, or other from ANY university were to apply?

Reply 32

bikerx23

no - the way your lecturers.etc., rate you will be taken in respect of the ability of your peers, as this will be the yardstick to be used in the judging.

Reply 33

CamSPSer

Most of the masters courses offered at SPS are quite synoptic. for instance the global transformations course is taught by sociology and politics and a bit of economics. there is a primarily psychological course but it has elements of psychology

SPS is the adminstrative faculty that deals with all these applications, you never apply to the politics dept or sociology dept i believe

Reply 34

fleur-de-lis

Chocca

I wish to study SPS (at graduate level) if possible, as I'm currently studying Politics.

I work with an MP (if that helps)...I compete in sports at a good level. I'm one of the founders of a debating society, I'm currently about to stand to be the representative for my course. With tha stuff, plus uni work, I don't really have time for much else in the form of extracurricular stuff.

I seem to remember that the the graduate admissions form had some areas for listing your extracurricular activities. You could write about this- and be more specific, for eg- the extent of your work with the MP, whichever sports and which level etc. I believe that the extra curricular activities tend to just give a finishing touch to your application to show that you are an all rounder. The people I know who are doing research in Social & Political Sciences have a rather exemplary extra curricular record. But eventually, your admission would depend on your grades/research so far & the letters of recommendation.