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The_Lonely_Goatherd
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#2961
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#2961
(Original post by Angelicus)
Could I ask for your prayers for me and my family for today (although its a bit late now!) We found out on tuesday that my Godfather, whom my parents both know from university days had died at 51 from leukemia. The funeral was today and although it was lovely, was understandably very hard. I'd appreciate your prayers at this time.
Prayer said for you and your family :hugs:
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lessthan0
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#2962
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#2962
(Original post by glam_&_glitzy)
Well, from my experience of the New Rite mass (my parish, school masses, and the local convent) it's all too chatty and personal for my liking. I really couldn't see it deepening my faith and understanding - I am however, looking forward to the new translation, in the hope that is brings a bit more reverence back.

[I'm not intending to offend you here, I just find the welcoming, and congregation questions during the sermon, and awful hymns too much sometimes. I prefer the tranquility and reverence of a Latin Mass]. However, I do see your points about the use of Latin, making it incomprehensible to some, and therefore possibly very hard to concentrate. I was able to overcome that by the use of a missal. I hope very much that the new translation will combine reverence and understanding, to make something really beautiful!

Maybe I've just been to the wrong churches! My parish seemed to be filled with old people, families trying to get their kids into good Catholic schools, and the youth band.

I suppose, another reason why I posted here, is because I don't have Catholic friends any more! :rolleyes: None of them practise the faith or believe in anything really.
In reference to the underlined words, I don't know about chatty, but I like the mass to be personal- I (personally, haha) don't get much out of the mysticism and ceremony and "tradition" bit of the Church alone, so as part of my relationship with God I like the mass to be personal. This is probably indicative of at least a strand of liberalism flowing through my faith...

Addressing the italics, I kind of get what you mean, as they probably break up the "flow" of the liturgy, but what do you think of the obvious opportunity for catechesis that it provides? If people have questions about their faith, and the only time during the week that there'll be contact between them and the priest, then that seems like a good time to tackle those questions, no?

And the bold: This is what I like about Catholicism- we believe so many of the same things about God, and we've encountered him in some way through a ceremony that has been passed down from Him and his first followers for 2000 years, and yet we're not all the same, and God doesn't require us all to relate to Him in an identical way. I like the mass to be a bit more personal than you do, you appreciate more the reverence of the Latin Rite, and it doesn't matter because as much as we like the liturgy to be run in a certain way, the heart of the liturgy is the same, and we both love the God who is met in that liturgy

On a final note, something to think about the families with children aiming for "good Catholic schools"- if they're in the church that's a good thing, because it doesn't matter that the children are being brought along for maybe less worthy reasons; being there means they're being exposed to God and his love in the Church and that could develop into the deep and personal faith, understanding and relationship with the risen Lord, whether their parents intend it or not!
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Angelicus
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#2963
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#2963
Thank you for your prayers - they are greatly appreciated

I have to ask this and, from previous conversations that I have read on here I think I'm probably on my own, is there anyone else who feels like the new mass translation is a really negative step? I didn't like it from when I first looked at it - immediately put off by the non-inclusive and antiquated language. My dad (whose a theologian and very hot on liturgy and the mass etc.) also doesn't think its a helpful step forward and recently found this website which is fascinating: http://www.whatifwejustsaidwait.org/1998missal.htm . It has passages from a 1998 version of the missal (which has never been used), as well as the current and new translations. For me, it is clear that the 1998 version is much richer than the current version but so much more understandable, real and indeed more mysterious than the version we'll be getting from sunday!

For example the first sunday of advent collect:
Currently:
All-powerful God,
increase our strength of will for doing good
that Christ may find
an eager welcome at his coming
and call us to his side in the kingdom of heaven.

1998 (never used):
Almighty God,
strengthen the resolve of your faithful people
to prepare for the coming of your Christ
by works of justice and mercy,
so that when we go forth to meet him
he may call us to sit at his right hand
and possess the kingdom of heaven.

New version:
Grant, we pray, almighty God,
that your faithful may resolve
to run forth with righteous deeds,
to meet your Christ who is coming,
so that gathered at His right hand
they may be worthy to possess
the heavenly kingdom

There is also the fascinating story of the creation of both the current, 1998 and new versions so be found here: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...g=content;col1 It is really interesting in showing the shift towards conservatism which culminated in the Liturgiam authenticam and the new mass translation. Its a bit long but definitely worth a read (there are also more examples from the 1998 missal to be found on page 7).

For me, its a really sad story and has left us spiritually poorer - although I feel I may be alone on that, in this group at least. I leave you with a quote from one of the commenters on whatifwejustsaidwait, as he expresses what I feel much more eloquently - the full comment can be found here ( http://www.whatifwejustsaidwait.org/readcomments.htm ) - bold is my own:

It boggles the mind to think that at a time when more and more people, especially youth, feel they do not need or are not fed by the institutional church, that those who are charged with 'shepherding' the faithful would turn backwards and grab onto an ancient language, unfamiliar metaphors, and silted syntax in order to renew a sense of mystery in the celebration of Eucharist that they say has been lost to the spirit of Vatican II. We all know how powerful language and image can be when it comes to inspiring and motivating people to action or awe-filled meditation. We need look no further that the current political landscape and rhetoric to see the evidence . How is my "roof" going to be prepared for the Lord to come under it? The word "consubstantial" slips so easily off the tongue. No doubt the 3X "mea culpa" will make me more aware of my grievous faults. Those are just a few of the obvious disconnects that the congregation will encounter while celebrating mass from the pews. When one turns to the orations used by the celebrant the incongruities of image and symbol along with the tongue twister syntax will all but sever any connection between priest and people. So if I understand the reasoning of our bishops; while youth and young adults flock to non-denominational mega churches where they feel the service and Word speaks to them in words that have meaning for their life now and many adults just stop attending Church except to mark out those important life milestones, the Catholic Church is going to return to relevance by more accurately and authentically translating the latin of the "Novus Ordo." This will return the mystery to the Mass? This will reconnect our mind, body and imagination to the ineffable?
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Aula
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#2964
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#2964
Life is amazing. God is good. That is all.

:hugs: for you all.
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The_Lonely_Goatherd
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#2965
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#2965
I haven't actually read the new changes to the Mass. Is there something online where I can find them?
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yawn
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#2966
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#2966
(Original post by Arcane Barn Elk)
Regarding Mass, I must admit I find the questions and jokes directed to the congregation a little off putting. I think that I have a more serious frame of mind than most people so I hope that others find it more welcome.
When does this take place? The reason I ask is because priests are expected to relate the homily/sermon to the Gospel reading. I can understand that they might want to employ such a question and answer session if it is a Family Mass and the children have been taken aside by Cathechists (up till that time) for their instruction on the Gospel, but even so, the questions should relate to the Gospel and used as a corroborative means to the teaching they've just received from the Cathechists. But I wouldn't expect a priest to use such methods of teaching during any other Mass...and I would have to say something to him if he did. I did challenge a former PP on misusing the homily to relay his life experiences and interest, and personal opinions. I said to him after Mass one day, when during the homily he told us about his trip to the Catacombs in Rome and all the historical significance of them, that I thought the expectation was that priests preached the Gospel and not give a history lesson. Obviously, he didn't like it because a lot of priests think they're a law unto themselves and can disregard the obedience vowed to the Church hierarchy, but it gave him food for thought and he did 'preach the Gospel' thereafter.

And I prayed for God's forgiveness for being disrespectful.
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Arcane Barn Elk
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#2967
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#2967
(Original post by yawn)
When does this take place? The reason I ask is because priests are expected to relate the homily/sermon to the Gospel reading.
It is at the introductory rites, during the homily and before the dismissal. I'm new to the parish so I need to wait a while until I express my opinion I think

In every other respect I like the parish. They carry out all of the 'bells and whistles' that I like and have an active community of all ages

But I'm pleased that you expressed your opinion as it is far to often that people just complain and then do nothing!
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Arcane Barn Elk
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#2968
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#2968
(Original post by Angelicus)
turn backwards and grab onto an ancient language, unfamiliar metaphors, and silted syntax in order to renew a sense of mystery in the celebration of Eucharist that they say has been lost to the spirit of Vatican II.
I am afraid that we disagree. One of the problems with using modern language, familiar metaphors and simple syntax is the risk that in doing so we lose the richness and profundity of what we are saying and doing. The second problem is that the Church may end up with frequent revisions as each new generation comes along and 'needs' a liturgy that they can easily understand.

Another consideration is that in the Mass we are doing what is ancient, unfamiliar and demanding of our understanding and in my opinion this should be reflected in our words. The Mass should make demands on our understanding and I have always felt that the contemporary, engaging and attention grabbing 'services' of some new faiths are inappropriate, shallow and ultimately short lived. I would not like to see this within the Church. I know that this is not what you are saying, but I feel that moving towards 'relevance' and the 'contemporary' is inappropriate within Catholic liturgy.

God Bless
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yawn
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#2969
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#2969
(Original post by Angelicus)
the Catholic Church is going to return to relevance by more accurately and authentically translating the latin of the "Novus Ordo." This will return the mystery to the Mass? This will reconnect our mind, body and imagination to the ineffable?
According to the five seminars I attended which explains comprehensively, the reasons for the changes, and their effects on the current liturgy, we are returning to a translation much closer to the original Latin, that which was pre-Vatican II, and not the Latin of the 'Novus Ordo' which came about as a result of Vatican II - mindful that it is going to be said in the vernacular. I would far rather have Mass that was truly representative of how the Apostles said it and how our early Church Fathers and all other Christians heard it, and not some trendy update that removes so much of the meaning of worship. I do have to agree here totally with what Arcane Barn Elk has said.

There does seems to be a lot of confusion...I would suggest that you all try to attend the seminars that all Bishops are required to ensure their parishes provide.

God bless.
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yawn
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#2970
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#2970
My brother passed his Viva Voce with flying colours and now holds the title of Doctor, officially. Regarding his job interview, he's just completed the fourth stage and is hoping to reach the fifth and final stage by way of video conference with the Managing Director!

Thanks for your prayers and a few more would be much appreciated to influence the five interviewers who carried out the fourth stage to reach concensus that he was far and away, the best candidate!
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The_Lonely_Goatherd
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#2971
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#2971
I seem to be sliding back downhill again
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yawn
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#2972
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#2972
(Original post by The_Lonely_Goatherd)
I seem to be sliding back downhill again
You need more prayers, dear friend. :console:
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The_Lonely_Goatherd
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#2973
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#2973
(Original post by yawn)
You need more prayers, dear friend. :console:
:sadnod:

Extra prayer said for your brother
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Angelicus
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#2974
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#2974
(Original post by The_Lonely_Goatherd)
I seem to be sliding back downhill again
(Original post by The_Lonely_Goatherd)
I haven't actually read the new changes to the Mass. Is there something online where I can find them?
I ma so sorry to hear that. I will light a candle for you at mass tomorrow.

:console:

The mass translation can be found here: http://www.liturgyoffice.org.uk/Miss...-2-Peoples.pdf , showing both the current ('73 translatiion) and the new translation so you can see the difference.

I will respond to peoples comments tomorrow when I'm a bit fresher and can think coherantly - just been on a full day trip to visit the grandparents
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The_Lonely_Goatherd
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#2975
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(Original post by Angelicus)
I ma so sorry to hear that. I will light a candle for you at mass tomorrow.

:console:

The mass translation can be found here: http://www.liturgyoffice.org.uk/Miss...-2-Peoples.pdf , showing both the current ('73 translatiion) and the new translation so you can see the difference.

I will respond to peoples comments tomorrow when I'm a bit fresher and can think coherantly - just been on a full day trip to visit the grandparents
Thanks for this. I've had a read through and I dislike it on the basis that I have to learn the entire new Mass setting from scratch, which won't be easy when I'm not in church every week :p: Other than that I have no major objection, though I see what you mean about a possible language barrier.

I'd appreciate the candle, thank you. I hope you had a good time with your grandparents
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Choirboy
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#2976
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#2976
(Original post by Angelicus)
I ma so sorry to hear that. I will light a candle for you at mass tomorrow.

:console:

The mass translation can be found here: http://www.liturgyoffice.org.uk/Miss...-2-Peoples.pdf , showing both the current ('73 translatiion) and the new translation so you can see the difference.

I will respond to peoples comments tomorrow when I'm a bit fresher and can think coherantly - just been on a full day trip to visit the grandparents
Thank you for the link. The translation is very faithful to the current Italian responses so I'm really comfortable with it. No probs for me.
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yawn
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#2977
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#2977
(Original post by The_Lonely_Goatherd)
I seem to be sliding back downhill again
I just wanted to let you know that I offered up my Mass and Communion today for your intention that you would be protected against that which ails you.

And thank you so much for praying for my lil' bro.
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The_Lonely_Goatherd
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#2978
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#2978
(Original post by yawn)
I just wanted to let you know that I offered up my Mass and Communion today for your intention that you would be protected against that which ails you.

And thank you so much for praying for my lil' bro.
Thank you :hugs: I didn't sleep until after 5am this morning and then kept waking up and not being able to go back to sleep. Trying to distract myself with some uni work.

I was hoping to go to church myself but I don't think I'm well enough
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yawn
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#2979
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#2979
(Original post by Choirboy)
Thank you for the link. The translation is very faithful to the current Italian responses so I'm really comfortable with it. No probs for me.
Yeah, my grandparents say that the New Roman Rite responses have returned to that which was in place from the start of Latin masses being said in the vernacular. It was only in 1972 when Pope Paul VI changed some of the original words that we moved away from the original Mass.

The changes are minimal, and the congregation's responses are hardly changed at all. Of course, the practice of spreading the sign of the peace will stop at the altar for the priest, and the altar servers may spread it down to the congregation if that is how the Bishops determine it to be done. The idea of the priest not leaving the altar after the Consecration is that he remains there to protect the Eucharist. He will not now leave the altar until Mass is over. It was actually never intended that the hierarchy of the 'sign of peace' stopped for the priest with the altar servers, it had just become 'common practice.'

Another small change will be in those parish churches where the priest normally enters the altar from the sacristy. They will now, in common with all the congregation enter at the back where they may make the sign of the cross in the holy water font before they say Mass.

My parish priest started some small changes to the Mass today, just to get us all accustomed to the changes before the official deadline of Advent. The flow of Mass is not changing at all. The Introductory Rites, Liturgy of the Word, Liturgy of the Eucharist, and Concluding Rites are those where small changes will take place. As an example, instead of saying in response to 'The Lord is with you', 'And also with you' we say 'And with your spirit' because that is what the original Latin said 'Et *** spiritu tuo.'

The point overall that is made is that, the translation we have been using is adequate, but the revised translation is richer. The purpose of the greeting is not just to say 'Hello' or 'Good morning'. It alerts participants that they are entering a sacramental realm and reminds them of their responsibilities during this time we will spend at prayer. And as a reminder, both the greeting and the reply come from the Bible. 'The Lord be with you' appears as a greeting or encouragement in Judges 6:12; Ruth 2:4; 2 Chronicles 15:2 and Luke 1:28. 'And with your spirit' is inspired by passages that conclude four of the New Testament epistles: 2 Timothy 4:22, Galatians 6:18; Philippians 4:23 and Philemon 25.

That's the thing about the revised translation, it roots us more deeply in the scriptures and more faithfully replicates the earliest Masses from Apostolic times.

My family remember people being very unhappy with the introduction of the vernacular, and then again when the vernacular was revised because it was not faithful to the Latin. Some people will resist change, particularly when they haven't undergone explanation and preparing for those changes. Having being one of those who has benefitted from such explanation and preparation, I warmly welcome the New Roman Rite. I have been informed of the very good reasons for the reversion. The revised translation has more depth. As people say and hear the new words, they should appreciate even more the value of the faith they hold so dear.

I empathise with those who do hold fears over the changes because humankind does not readily accommodate change. But I am sure that they will very quickly grow to love the way that the prayers lead us to a greater humbleness... and modesty...in the presence of an awesome God.

God bless
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yawn
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#2980
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#2980
(Original post by The_Lonely_Goatherd)
Thank you :hugs: I didn't sleep until after 5am this morning and then kept waking up and not being able to go back to sleep. Trying to distract myself with some uni work.
That's a good strategy...distraction I meant; not being kept awake.

I was hoping to go to church myself but I don't think I'm well enough
Consider that I went in your place..and in the process, did something for the good of another. And remember to take the advice you gave to someone else about hills, vales and bridges.
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