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The_Lonely_Goatherd
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#3241
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#3241
(Original post by shinytoy)
so do you actually do anythin, attend these pro life things , prayer vigils outside abortion clinics, say rosary for abortion causes etc?

and wtf can anyone explain how protestants are pro choice? worst are the protestant men
' sex before marriage is ok' BUT 'i would never have a child outside marriage, I am also against abortion becuase i am christian' this position seems illogical
I don't do anything like that :nah:
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shinytoy
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#3242
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(Original post by Aula)
Pro life stuff does not necessarily mean it's a protest, or that you're telling people they're a murderer or even showing people pics of foetuses. I's completely agree that doing that is not at all helpful.

A couple of weekends ago I went to a pro-life prayer vigil, which involved saying the rosary between a church and an abortion clinic, and then continuing the mysteries outside it and singing a few hymns. There were two people stood outside the clinic, who were there to provide counselling. They spoke to, and gave leaflets to a few ladies who were going in, or coming out, but if they didn't want to speak to them then they didn't try too hard. There was also one very sad instance of a lady trying hard to grab the leaflet, but the guy with her kept dragging her away. She did manage to get a leaflet in her bag in the end though. Also, the police were there, so if they thought the two pavement counsellors were hassling the women too much they would have stopped it, and they did once, but only once, and from what I could see on the other side of the road, this was because the lady was stood on the steps of the clinic, rather than anything else.

Hai all
Life is good, God is good.
hi that sounds great. i think it is hard to find info about the alternative. until last week i never knew SPUC offered shelter, counseling and help with adoption. thats sad about the lady.

(Original post by Aula)
protestants can use contraception
yes but is not 100%, and so, what then, since those dudes are oooh sooo moral and anti abortion but also anti kids outside marriage? i guess the only olution then is to marry asap the pregnant girl, is that what they mean?

and also how can protestants argue that abortifaecent contraceptive pills are ok?
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adamrules247
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#3243
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(Original post by shinytoy)
any of you dudes ever participate in a pro life protest?

i belive that
- all life is sacred and from God
- to destroy life with a soul is murder
- in the Bible it says something like 'when you were created in your mothers womb I knew you' indicating God already has formed the identity of teh child before birth
- the viability arguement falls flat because many people are dependant on drugs or machines to keep them alive just as the kids depends on mom
- the 'bunch of cells' argument falls flat too as cell division is by meosis not mitosis
- therefore abortion, abortifaecent contraceptives and mornign after pill is killing a person and therefore murder.

however im not militant and dont think it is helpful to tell people coming out a clinic they are a murderer, or showing people cgross pics of foetuses.

i think it is helpful to pray and offer advice, like telling them about support SPUC offers so they know the alternatives.

but most christians i know are pro choice and do not see it as incompatible with the Bible?

anyone take part in pro life stuff before?
Firstly I think abortion is totally wrong, it can never be right. I agree on not calling the women who have abortions (they are victams too) murders. I don't agree, however, on not using shock tactics. I want to raise three things: What tactics did Wilberforce use to abolish slavery, he showed people the awful conditions of the slave ships. And we must do the same thing. One wonders, as Peter Kreeft has pointed out, if the German people had seen pictures of Auswitz rather than rather than believing what the German government told them, would they have over-thrown Hitler.



The truth isn't nice but people have to know it. I always notice that it is the pro-aborts who always say, when British protesters use some of the tactics in America (which are showing sucesses), that we shouldn't "americanise" the debate. Well why not? Because they'd lose, that's why.
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adamrules247
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#3244
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#3244
(Original post by Aula)
Pro life stuff does not necessarily mean it's a protest, or that you're telling people they're a murderer or even showing people pics of foetuses. I's completely agree that doing that is not at all helpful.

A couple of weekends ago I went to a pro-life prayer vigil, which involved saying the rosary between a church and an abortion clinic, and then continuing the mysteries outside it and singing a few hymns. There were two people stood outside the clinic, who were there to provide counselling. They spoke to, and gave leaflets to a few ladies who were going in, or coming out, but if they didn't want to speak to them then they didn't try too hard. There was also one very sad instance of a lady trying hard to grab the leaflet, but the guy with her kept dragging her away. She did manage to get a leaflet in her bag in the end though. Also, the police were there, so if they thought the two pavement counsellors were hassling the women too much they would have stopped it, and they did once, but only once, and from what I could see on the other side of the road, this was because the lady was stood on the steps of the clinic, rather than anything else.

Hai all
Life is good, God is good.
Oh hai

Hope everything's going well. That's so sad about the poor woman dragged away by her husband/boyfriend. The pro aborts will still argue she has a 'choice' though.
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shinytoy
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#3245
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#3245
(Original post by adamrules247)
Firstly I think abortion is totally wrong, it can never be right. I agree on not calling the women who have abortions (they are victams too) murders. I don't agree, however, on not using shock tactics. I want to raise three things: What tactics did Wilberforce use to abolish slavery, he showed people the awful conditions of the slave ships. And we must do the same thing. One wonders, as Peter Kreeft has pointed out, if the German people had seen pictures of Auswitz rather than rather than believing what the German government told them, would they have over-thrown Hitler.



The truth isn't nice but people have to know it. I always notice that it is the pro-aborts who always say, when British protesters use some of the tactics in America (which are showing sucesses), that we shouldn't "americanise" the debate. Well why not? Because they'd lose, that's why.
what?

not at all. i could show a bunch of people videos and phots of open heart surgery and it is shocking and gross, but doesnt prove it is wrong.

shock tactics arent necessary bceuase the ONLY logicaal outcome from saying 'God created all souls' is that 'only God can destroy a soul'. i totally dont get the protestant argument on 'a bunch of cells', and i dont get how some protestants are pro choice?

(Original post by adamrules247)
Oh hai

Hope everything's going well. That's so sad about the poor woman dragged away by her husband/boyfriend. The pro aborts will still argue she has a 'choice' though.
why is everybody saying 'hai' is that like 'ni hao'?
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adamrules247
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#3246
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#3246
(Original post by shinytoy)
what?

not at all. i could show a bunch of people videos and phots of open heart surgery and it is shocking and gross, but doesnt prove it is wrong.

shock tactics arent necessary bceuase the ONLY logicaal outcome from saying 'God created all souls' is that 'only God can destroy a soul'. i totally dont get the protestant argument on 'a bunch of cells', and i dont get how some protestants are pro choice?



why is everybody saying 'hai' is that like 'ni hao'?
Oh the God argument will work on Protestants that's for sure, but it sure won't work on a modern day public who don't really believe in God. And sure, open heart surgary may be gross, but people know it does good. Most people have an unease about abortion and this will swing them one way. Honestly, look to the USA where they do this. In some states, although none have explicitly banned abortion (though there are bills with an excellent chance of success in some State Houses) there are some which have done things like de-funded planned parenthood, restricted abortion massively, made is extremely difficult for abortion providers to stay open (there's one state where because of this law they now only have one abortion provider and it might close because it's under investigation). Where have the "nice" tactics that we use here got us? Nowhere, that's where.

I think the "Oh hai" thing comes from lolcats.
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shinytoy
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#3247
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(Original post by adamrules247)
Oh the God argument will work on Protestants that's for sure, but it sure won't work on a modern day public who don't really believe in God. And sure, open heart surgary may be gross, but people know it does good. Most people have an unease about abortion and this will swing them one way. Honestly, look to the USA where they do this. In some states, although none have explicitly banned abortion (though there are bills with an excellent chance of success in some State Houses) there are some which have done things like de-funded planned parenthood, restricted abortion massively, made is extremely difficult for abortion providers to stay open (there's one state where because of this law they now only have one abortion provider and it might close because it's under investigation). Where have the "nice" tactics that we use here got us? Nowhere, that's where.

I think the "Oh hai" thing comes from lolcats.
is it true that the CCC allows abortion if the mother and/or baby's life is endangered?

and is it true that the catholic faith says it is better to die than to be a rape victim - St Maria Goretti?

and also, when Jesus said 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone' in John 8, does this mean we cannot condemn wrongdoing unless we are sinless ourselves, and if so, is having a legal system contrary to the bible? and we can never help others to who what is sin and what is not
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adamrules247
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#3248
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#3248
(Original post by shinytoy)
is it true that the CCC allows abortion if the mother and/or baby's life is endangered?
No, but I think, though I may be wrong, it allows operations which may lead to the death of the unborn child.

and is it true that the catholic faith says it is better to die than to be a rape victim - St Maria Goretti?
The Catholic Church teaches that to remain chaste is to remain pure and to be pure is to be good. And to die for any living the faith in such a way is an amazing thing.

and also, when Jesus said 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone' in John 8, does this mean we cannot condemn wrongdoing unless we are sinless ourselves, and if so, is having a legal system contrary to the bible? and we can never help others to who what is sin and what is not
We can point out if someone is in a state of sin, or about to commit sin, as an act of charitiy (and it should be delivered in a charitable way), this is one of the things St. Thomas Aquinas pointed out. However what the stoning scene shows us is this, that when we judge in such a way that will condemn a person (such as by executing them for example) we automatically suppose ourselves to be better people them then, this is an act of pride which is one of the seven deadly sins.
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shinytoy
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#3249
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(Original post by adamrules247)
No, but I think, though I may be wrong, it allows operations which may lead to the death of the unborn child.

i looked it up and it only talks about 'direct abortion' ie intentional killing. indirect abortion, for example, operations with indirectly cause death unintentionally, and presumably medical treatment of the mother which does the same is ok http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a5.htm



The Catholic Church teaches that to remain chaste is to remain pure and to be pure is to be good. And to die for any living the faith in such a way is an amazing thing.

ok right so if a pervy dude trys to rape me, it is better for me to be killed than to be raped? is it more honerable for the virgin to fight to the death than to be raped? and are catholic women who do NOT fight to the death and get raped, in the wrong?

We can point out if someone is in a state of sin, or about to commit sin, as an act of charitiy (and it should be delivered in a charitable way), this is one of the things St. Thomas Aquinas pointed out. However what the stoning scene shows us is this, that when we judge in such a way that will condemn a person (such as by executing them for example) we automatically suppose ourselves to be better people them then, this is an act of pride which is one of the seven deadly sins.
i read that actually the pharasees were testing Jesus, saying ' she has been causght in adultery, is it right to stone her' trying to trap him into saying 'yes' when he had no LEGAL authority ('My kingdom is not of this world') or 'no' and encouraging them to disobey the law at the time.

the law was that, in accordance with deuteronomy, if somone was seen in adultery, both the man and woman should be stoned Deuteronomy 22:22 (If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel.).

As they had only brought the woman, and not the man, they had clearly not followed the requirement of the Law so her death would have been unlawful, and therefore murder. Jesus knew this, and knew they therefore wre therefore as guilty of injustice as she was. so it was hypocrisy and equally as illegal for them to condemn her as it was for her to be adultering.

Also, this statement is taken as a blanket prohibition against accusing, disciplining other Christians, then this passage flatly contradicts a host of other passages (e.g., Romans 16:17; 1 Corinthians 5; Galatians 6:1; 2 Thessalonians 3:6,14; Titus 3:10; 2 John 9-11). Jesus not only frequently passed judgment on a variety of individuals during His life on Earth (e.g., Matthew 15:14; 23; John 8:44,55; 9:41; et al.), but also enjoined upon His followers the necessity of doing the same thing (e.g., John 7:24).
I just pinched that frm some website but it was useful.

also. what do you think of this:

2301 .....The free gift of organs after death is legitimate and can be meritorious.

whereas the Pope has recently withdrawn his consent to organ donation?
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Angelicus
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#3250
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(Original post by shinytoy)
is it true that the CCC allows abortion if the mother and/or baby's life is endangered?
It is in the mothers case (not the baby's as that wouldn't make any sense...). It falls under the principle of intent/double effect. If for instance, the mother has say a certain type of cancer that affects the womb or fallopian tubes (I assume this is possible but I'm not sure - this is just as an example) and they have to be removed then that is allowed, even though it would abort the baby - the intent is to save the mothers life not to have an abortion. However, this sort of situation is very rare.

and is it true that the catholic faith says it is better to die than to be a rape victim - St Maria Goretti?
I don't think so. By doing so it seems to imply that rape is somehow the womans fault and that rape also alters whatever condition of chastity or purity she may be in. I have no idea what St. Maria Goretti says but if she says anything along those lines she is grossly wrong, to my mind at least.

The CCC says: Rape is the forcible violation of the sexual intimacy of another person. It does injury to justice and charity. Rape deeply wounds the respect, freedom, and physical and moral integrity to which every person has a right. It causes grave damage that can mark the victim for life. It is always an intrinsically evil act. Graver still is the rape of children committed by parents (incest) or those responsible for the education of the children entrusted to them.
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Angelicus
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#3251
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(Original post by shinytoy)
2301 .....The free gift of organs after death is legitimate and can be meritorious.

whereas the Pope has recently withdrawn his consent to organ donation?[/B]
I think that the pope was probably wrong to do that. But then he is just a man and he may just not have fancied having his body cut open after death. Or hhis family might have had a go at him. Who knows?

Although in all likelihood, his organs wouldn't be used as he is too old - although thats not really the issue being debated, its the principle of it all.

EDIT: As a more serious reply however, this article seems fairly good on the issue - http://www.sspx.org/miscellaneous/me...harvesting.htm
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adamrules247
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#3252
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(Original post by Angelicus)
I think that the pope was probably wrong to do that. But then he is just a man and he may just not have fancied having his body cut open after death. Or hhis family might have had a go at him. Who knows?

Although in all likelihood, his organs wouldn't be used as he is too old - although thats not really the issue being debated, its the principle of it all.

EDIT: As a more serious reply however, this article seems fairly good on the issue - http://www.sspx.org/miscellaneous/me...harvesting.htm
Actually the Holy Father didn't withdraw consent, he was informed by the Vatican that technically his Organs don't belong to him; but to the Church. So if he dies they have to keep them in case they become relics when/if he's made a saint.
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shinytoy
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#3253
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(Original post by Angelicus)
I think that the pope was probably wrong to do that. But then he is just a man and he may just not have fancied having his body cut open after death. Or hhis family might have had a go at him. Who knows?

Although in all likelihood, his organs wouldn't be used as he is too old - although thats not really the issue being debated, its the principle of it all.

EDIT: As a more serious reply however, this article seems fairly good on the issue - http://www.sspx.org/miscellaneous/me...harvesting.htm
what do you mean by this? are you catholic?

(Original post by adamrules247)
Actually the Holy Father didn't withdraw consent, he was informed by the Vatican that technically his Organs don't belong to him; but to the Church. So if he dies they have to keep them in case they become relics when/if he's made a saint.
apparantly he wrote some really long thing about how there was a fine line between procuring death in order to harvest organs (immoral) and harversting organs after death has occured (moral) because the organs must be taken immedicaately while in an 'alive' state.
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adamrules247
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#3254
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(Original post by shinytoy)
what do you mean by this? are you catholic?



apparantly he wrote some really long thing about how there was a fine line between procuring death in order to harvest organs (immoral) and harversting organs after death has occured (moral) because the organs must be taken immedicaately while in an 'alive' state.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/reli...e-donated.html

I'd also be careful of that article if it's on the SSPX website, they sometimes have some funny ideas (though they have some good ones sometimes as well)
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shinytoy
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#3255
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dudes

i have a question on mortal sin. what if your act is not wron, but your thoughts are wrong, is it moral sin?

eg

Joe Bloggs is in the park walking his dog. he has a stick in his hand. You walk past and assume he is throwing sticks for the dog, and all is well.

But actually Joe is throwing the sticks for his dog when he thinks of using the stick to dowse for gold and to lead him to a tree to worship the tree Gods, in case God isnt real. but then he goes back to throwing sticks for the dog and thinks no more about it.

Saturday at confession, he reviews his week. told some lies, did work, walked dog, went gym, had a beer with mates. he has forgotton the thoughts that popped into his head about dowsing for tree Gods, so he doesnt confess it.

is he in mortal sin of apostasy?
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The_Lonely_Goatherd
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#3256
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#3256
For anyone wanting little wallet-sized booklets on the rosary, daily prayers or the Stations of the Cross, I'd like to recommend this website: http://www.kilteganfathers.org/ Look under the 'Cards' section. They're free!
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Angelicus
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#3257
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(Original post by shinytoy)
what do you mean by this? are you catholic?
Yes I am Catholic. And I mean just what I said (although I was being quite flippant) - he is just a man (although perhaps I should have said human). A very important human and one entrusted with a lot of responsibilty but still with all the failings and weaknesses and strengths and own opinions. I don't think it is necessarily helpful to look on the popes every word or action as in someway being divinely inspired or the popes word as always being the final say (or needed) on every issue. But that of course, is my opinion, although I don't think that it contradicts church teaching

(Original post by adamrules247)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/reli...e-donated.html

I'd also be careful of that article if it's on the SSPX website, they sometimes have some funny ideas (though they have some good ones sometimes as well)
Ah, that makes more sense - gotta be prepapred in case a few miracles abound!

(Original post by The_Lonely_Goatherd)
For anyone wanting little wallet-sized booklets on the rosary, daily prayers or the Stations of the Cross, I'd like to recommend this website: http://www.kilteganfathers.org/ Look under the 'Cards' section. They're free!
Oooh, thanks for the link. I'd really like to know a bit more about the stations of the corss so I will take a look.
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shinytoy
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#3258
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(Original post by shinytoy)
dudes

i have a question on mortal sin. what if your act is not wron, but your thoughts are wrong, is it moral sin?

eg

Joe Bloggs is in the park walking his dog. he has a stick in his hand. You walk past and assume he is throwing sticks for the dog, and all is well.

But actually Joe is throwing the sticks for his dog when he thinks of using the stick to dowse for gold and to lead him to a tree to worship the tree Gods, in case God isnt real. but then he goes back to throwing sticks for the dog and thinks no more about it.

Saturday at confession, he reviews his week. told some lies, did work, walked dog, went gym, had a beer with mates. he has forgotton the thoughts that popped into his head about dowsing for tree Gods, so he doesnt confess it.

is he in mortal sin of apostasy?
do you fools have the answer or what?
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The_Lonely_Goatherd
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#3259
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(Original post by shinytoy)
do you fools have the answer or what?
Wow, no need to be passive aggressive :no:

I didn't answer because I don't really get the whole mortal/venial sin thing and thus am not in a good position to answer :nah:
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shinytoy
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(Original post by The_Lonely_Goatherd)
Wow, no need to be passive aggressive :no:

I didn't answer because I don't really get the whole mortal/venial sin thing and thus am not in a good position to answer :nah:
yeah sorry dudes.
i dont get it much either. i think it a) has to be a grave matter b) with full knowledge and consent c) be real bad

but i notice if i am in mortal sin, when i go in front the sacrrament i cannot feel the real presence. so i know mortal sin is real. and rela presence is also real. but i read that the greavest mortal sin is reciveeing communion when in mortal sin.

i also read that if you feel you shoudlnt reeceive commmunion you probably shouldnt


i also dont get indulgences. i m not sure if i believe them.
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