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    (Original post by Ossie1701)
    You stated:


    If only that person - and no one else - can make a judgement upon their life - then surely only they can/should make the decision about whether they should continue their life or not (euthanasia).

    And I still believe, no matter what the view of the Church - that if a child is severely handicapped and the parents are unable/possibly unwilling to raise that child - that they should have the right to abortion and the church should support them in such a tense time in their life - and not just lecture them on why abortion is wrong!
    In Mexico, Abortion Rights Strictly For the Books

    Fourteen-year-old Paulina Ramirez Jacinta was raped last year by a burglar who has since been jailed. Under Mexican law, Paulina was permitted to terminate the unwanted pregnancy that resulted, and she was firmly set on exercising that right. Until opposition forces proved too fierce.

    After Paulina was admitted by a public hospital for a first-trimester abortion, she was visited by unidentified anti-choice extremists who showed her graphic videos of abortions in a failed attempt to dissuade her. Then physicians at the hospital refused to perform the procedure for alleged conscientious reasons. So Paulina and her mother, Maria Elena Jacinto, appealed to Baja California's Attorney General Juan Manual Salazar Pimentel, the state's highest judicial official, for help. Instead he escorted them to a Catholic priest who told them that abortion is a sin.

    But Paulina and her mother pressed on, determined that Paulina should not be forced to become a mother at such a young age and under such horrific circumstances. The attorney general reluctantly signed a new order for an abortion. However, shortly before the procedure was to take place, Paulina and her mother were frightened out of it by the hospital director who exaggerated the health risks involved, emphasizing that Paulina could suffer a fatal hemorrhage or be left sterile - even though abortion is an extremely safe procedure. In April, the young teen delivered by Caesarian section the baby that she will raise with the help of her parents and with some economic assistance from several non-governmental organizations.

    Mexican abortion laws, which are regulated at the state level, are highly restrictive. It is estimated that as many as half a million Mexican women undergo illegal, clandestine abortions each year. While first-trimester procedures are permitted for rape victims or women whose lives are endangered by the pregnancy, Baja California state Rep. Martin Dominquez Rocha recently made the alarming proposal that the state's penal code be changed to eliminate the rape exception.
    apparantly the rapist walked free, the girl was given NO financial support, and for pushing the option of an abortion, she was excommunicated from church (the rapist was not). as the mother was excommunicated, the child could not be baptised,also as it was born out of wedlock.

    finally, in mexico, if a rapist marries the woman, he has no penalty of jail or fine, and the woman cannot refuse to marry him in order to press charges.

    this is disgusting and i do not think any God would allow it
    also i do not think it is right that some women see abortion as a method of contraception.
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    I think you are right that God would not condemn the woman as it suggested by this rather biased articule. Indeed, the Lord always goes after the lost ans strayed sheep rather than his exisiting flock.
    I feel that the woman's emotional state should have been taken into account before excommunicating her- since truly I do not believe that any mother could wish to terminate a part of them.
    However, I would address this article with caution as we do not know all the details. Abortion is a sin without any doubt, thus the child should not be made to suffer by being denied baptism. However, I am sure that God will reach the child in his unique and special way.
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    (Original post by EnglishDude)
    I think you are right that God would not condemn the woman as it suggested by this rather biased articule. Indeed, the Lord always goes after the lost ans strayed sheep rather than his exisiting flock.
    I feel that the woman's emotional state should have been taken into account before excommunicating her- since truly I do not believe that any mother could wish to terminate a part of them.
    However, I would address this article with caution as we do not know all the details. Abortion is a sin without any doubt, thus the child should not be made to suffer by being denied baptism. However, I am sure that God will reach the child in his unique and special way.
    Hmmm, I see no reason why a raped 14 yr old should be excommunicated if she wants an abortion. And sorry, if a person is raped by a burglar that does not constitute a 'lost and strayed sheep.'
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    hey, im fasting for Lent. i did a water fast on ash wednesday, and had a banana and an apple, in addition to one meal yesterday. i was well hungry. today im less hungry, and i havent had dinner yet.

    but it really is true- i dont know how, but somehow prayer and fasting really works! i feel alot closer to God. in fact it makes me afraid, i was going to attend stations of the cross tonight but i was too scared and i need to put some space between me and Godall i can think of is the low body energy levels combined with alot of prayer makes you focussed like indoctrination.
    anyone else had this experience?
    is this the point of Lent?and can you have too much of a good thing? ie is it right if i think i need to put space between me and God?
    i read that every time you are hungry you must think of God and pray. but it seems quite alot. is it right?
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    (Original post by shinytoy)
    hey, im fasting for Lent. i did a water fast on ash wednesday, and had a banana and an apple, in addition to one meal yesterday. i was well hungry. today im less hungry, and i havent had dinner yet.

    but it really is true- i dont know how, but somehow prayer and fasting really works! i feel alot closer to God. in fact it makes me afraid, i was going to attend stations of the cross tonight but i was too scared and i need to put some space between me and Godall i can think of is the low body energy levels combined with alot of prayer makes you focussed like indoctrination.
    anyone else had this experience?
    is this the point of Lent?and can you have too much of a good thing? ie is it right if i think i need to put space between me and God?
    i read that every time you are hungry you must think of God and pray. but it seems quite alot. is it right?
    In abiding by the Lenten precepts of fasting, prayerful readings and 'almsgiving' a balanced and common sense approach should be exercised.

    Regarding fasting: As a general rule whatever is deemed necessary in order to enable people to give proper attention to their daily lives is permitted. Much more food is allowed during cold weather, more to those working during the day and more to the weak and hungry than to the strong and well fed.

    Although fasting and prayer will bring one closer to God, we must remember that finding ways of helping others also achieves that.

    Unless one is living a contemplative life in an enclosed order, normal living should be enjoyed. We do not need to 'flagellate' ourselves (in its wider use of the word) to earn salvation from our sins - Jesus is merciful and knows what is in our hearts.

    My fear of obsession with fasting is that it changes people's perceptions and does not always do what it is designed to do, if done to excess.

    Be sensible about it, shinytoy. Have a closer look at what you have been reading and who has written it! Jesus doesn't want us to martyr ourselves needlessly.

    It might be helpful to you if you checked out the recommendations on fasting with your diocese.

    God bless.
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    Also- one should not boast or publically proclaim one's fasting since God knows- that was the message of the reading on Ash Wesnesday.
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    (Original post by EnglishDude)
    Also- one should not boast or publically proclaim one's fasting since God knows- that was the message of the reading on Ash Wesnesday.
    That's similar to the reading that tells us to find a private room to pray in rather than in front of a crowd.
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    Whatever you do, eat enough to make sure your stomach doesn't grumble in front of people.
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    (Original post by yawn)
    That's similar to the reading that tells us to find a private room to pray in rather than in front of a crowd.
    then why do we pray in church?

    hello everyone

    the reason i had felt the need to restrict my fast so much was because i normally am vegan, and normally i eat one main meal a day (dinner), with 2 smaller meals (breakfast and sometimes lunch if i ave time), so for me to observe lent according to those rules i wouldnt be changing anything.

    i just want this lent to be special cos i am being confirmed again this easter as RC, from CofE after completing the RCIA course.

    its the rite of election tomorrow and im all excited!!!:eek: :tsr2:
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    Ooo, hope it goes well for you.
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    (Original post by shinytoy)
    then why do we pray in church?
    If you have a look at The Cathechism of the Catholic Church para 2691 it tells us that the Church, the house of God is the proper place for the liturgical prayer of the parish community. For personal prayer, this can be a 'prayer corner' with the sacred Scriptures and icons, in order to be there, in secret before our Father.

    "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will not be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him."

    Matthew 6:5-8
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    I like that passage a lot.
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    Could I ask all of you how you feel about the Catholic church's stance regarding contraception and the problems it has caused in Africa, regarding the spread of AIDS for example?

    thank you
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    (Original post by SaccerZD)
    Could I ask all of you how you feel about the Catholic church's stance regarding contraception and the problems it has caused in Africa, regarding the spread of AIDS for example?

    thank you
    The Catholic Church has not caused the spread of AIDS in Africa - the promiscuity of the individuals has!

    There are two areas in Africa in particular. that have been researched on the spread of AIDS and the action taken to prevent it. Both of these areas have been compared with a control group of others than did use condoms. The two (backed by Church missionaries) that educated people to stay faithful to their long-term partners celebrated massives drops in the incidence of AIDS by up to 68% over the length of the 4-year study. In all the other groups the prevalance of AIDS increased year-on-year in the same period. You need to step outside the media propaganda and be more discerning with your reading to learn the truth!

    The Church's stance on contraception is a common-sense one. The rythmn method, if practiced conscientiously is almost 100% reliable which compares very favourably with other articial methods. The method promotes the dignity of both partners since it requires commitment, self control and mutual respect.

    What do other Catholics think? I should rephrase that to "what do Catholics think", since SaccerZD is an atheist.
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    (Original post by yawn)
    The rythmn method, if practiced conscientiously is almost 100% reliable which compares very favourably with other articial methods.
    ...is almost 100% reliable at preventing pregnancy, NOT sexually-transmitted diseases!
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    (Original post by SaccerZD)
    ...is almost 100% reliable at preventing pregnancy, NOT sexually-transmitted diseases!
    Quite.

    My post was referencing the point that the spread of AIDS has decreased remarkably in those areas where people are refraining from multiple sexual relationships. Hence the point that the Catholic Church is not responsible for the spread of AIDS, it is those practicing unfaithful relationships that are.

    The resolution of the spread of STD's is in our own hands, especially since condoms do not prevent their transmission either. If there is the possibility of pregnancy, even with wearing condoms, there is the possibility of contracting a STD.
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    I agree with yawn that the rythym method should be the wya around the problem of promicuity and that if a person stays faithful to their artner throughout life then STD will no longer grrow in areas such as Africa, yet more people in these areas need to be taught this.

    One of the problems in this area was the number of civil wars where it became commonplace for men to rape women from the "inferior race." Ive seen figures that showed that rape was amjor contributing factor to the spread of STDs.

    But this is where I will disagree from many Catholics, I beleive that once the appearence of STDs emerged in an area then if natural methods of restraining the disease didnt work then artificial methods should have been permissible, if only to preserve the sanctity of life. At present this would mean allowing condoms to be used in the worst affected areas such as Lesotho and Swaziland.
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    (Original post by fr browne)
    But this is where I will disagree from many Catholics, I beleive that once the appearence of STDs emerged in an area then if natural methods of restraining the disease didnt work then artificial methods should have been permissible, if only to preserve the sanctity of life. At present this would mean allowing condoms to be used in the worst affected areas such as Lesotho and Swaziland.
    I couldn't agree more!
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    (Original post by fr browne)
    I agree with yawn that the rythym method should be the wya around the problem of promicuity and that if a person stays faithful to their artner throughout life then STD will no longer grrow in areas such as Africa, yet more people in these areas need to be taught this.

    One of the problems in this area was the number of civil wars where it became commonplace for men to rape women from the "inferior race." Ive seen figures that showed that rape was amjor contributing factor to the spread of STDs.

    But this is where I will disagree from many Catholics, I beleive that once the appearence of STDs emerged in an area then if natural methods of restraining the disease didnt work then artificial methods should have been permissible, if only to preserve the sanctity of life. At present this would mean allowing condoms to be used in the worst affected areas such as Lesotho and Swaziland.
    The control groups I've already mentioned proved that these 'natural methods' did work!

    I have just found this report that substaniates what I have said - it is not the same source as I used originally - but replicates the same sort of findings:

    Uganda's Success Story
    Both abstinence and monogamy helped to curb the spread of AIDS in Uganda, where HIV infections reached epidemic proportions in the 1980's. The prevalence of HIV began to decline in the late 1980s and continued throughout the 1990s. In fact, between 1991 and 2000, HIV infection rates declined from 21 percent to 6 percent.[8]
    How did this happen? Shortly after he came into office in 1986, President Museveni of Uganda spearheaded a mass education campaign promoting a three-pronged AIDS prevention message: abstinence from sexual activity until marriage; monogamy within marriage; and condoms as a last resort. The message became commonly known as ABC: Abstain, be faithful, and use Condoms if A and B fail.
    The government used a multi-sector approach to spread its AIDS prevention message: it developed strong relationships with government, community and religious leaders who worked with the grassroots to teach ABC. Schools incorporated the ABC message into curricula, while faith-based communities, including Christians, Muslims, and Jews, trained leaders and community workers in ABC. The government also launched an aggressive media campaign using print, billboards, radio, and television to promote abstinence and monogamy.
    Condoms were definitely not the main element of the AIDS prevention message. President Museveni said, "We are being told that only a thin piece of rubber stands between us and the death of our Continent ... they (condoms) cannot become the main means of stemming the tide of AIDS."[9] He emphasized that condoms should be used, "if you cannot manage A and B ... as a fallback position, as a means of last resort."[10]
    Several reports show that the decline in AIDS prevalence in Uganda was due to monogamy and abstinence and not to condoms. According to Dr. Edward Green, an anthropologist at Harvard University and an expert on Uganda's AIDS programs, fidelity to one's partner was the most important factor in Uganda's success, followed by abstinence.[11] A 2004 Science study concluded that abstinence among young people and monogamy, rather than condom use, contributed to the decline of AIDS in Uganda
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    (Original post by yawn)
    Uganda's Success Story
    Both abstinence and monogamy helped to curb the spread of AIDS in Uganda, where HIV infections reached epidemic proportions in the 1980's. The prevalence of HIV began to decline in the late 1980s and continued throughout the 1990s. In fact, between 1991 and 2000, HIV infection rates declined from 21 percent to 6 percent.[8]
    How did this happen? Shortly after he came into office in 1986, President Museveni of Uganda spearheaded a mass education campaign promoting a three-pronged AIDS prevention message: abstinence from sexual activity until marriage; monogamy within marriage; and condoms as a last resort. The message became commonly known as ABC: Abstain, be faithful, and use Condoms if A and B fail.The government used a multi-sector approach to spread its AIDS prevention message: it developed strong relationships with government, community and religious leaders who worked with the grassroots to teach ABC. Schools incorporated the ABC message into curricula, while faith-based communities, including Christians, Muslims, and Jews, trained leaders and community workers in ABC. The government also launched an aggressive media campaign using print, billboards, radio, and television to promote abstinence and monogamy.
    Condoms were definitely not the main element of the AIDS prevention message. President Museveni said, "We are being told that only a thin piece of rubber stands between us and the death of our Continent ... they (condoms) cannot become the main means of stemming the tide of AIDS."[9] He emphasized that condoms should be used, "if you cannot manage A and B ... as a fallback position, as a means of last resort."[10]
    Several reports show that the decline in AIDS prevalence in Uganda was due to monogamy and abstinence and not to condoms. According to Dr. Edward Green, an anthropologist at Harvard University and an expert on Uganda's AIDS programs, fidelity to one's partner was the most important factor in Uganda's success, followed by abstinence.[11] A 2004 Science study concluded that abstinence among young people and monogamy, rather than condom use, contributed to the decline of AIDS in Uganda
    And thats the idea I was trying to get at, so together we're getting the right idea.
 
 
 
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