Turn on thread page Beta

TSR Catholic Society watch

Announcements
    Offline

    13
    (Original post by minimo)
    Can someone PLEASE just explain to sinful little me why taking the Pill when I am having sex with my HUSBAND is SO wrong?? PLEASE??
    Your plea deserves a reply that is fully explained and that cannot be done off the top of my head.

    I'll give it some thought (and will check references) before I personally, respond.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    Can someone PLEASE just explain to sinful little me why taking the Pill when I am having sex with my HUSBAND is SO wrong?? PLEASE??
    The below is taken from Wikipedia; it provides quite a simple summary:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christi..._contraception

    The Roman Catholic Church has been morally opposed to contraception for as far back as one can historically trace. The Catechism of the Catholic Church specifies that all sex acts must be both unitive and open to the possibility of procreation.[1] In addition to condemning use of artificial birth control, non-procreative sex acts such as mutual masturbation and oral sex are ruled out as ways to avoid pregnancy.


    Current view

    The current official position of the Catholic Church regarding birth control is expressed very clearly in Pope Pius XI's 1930 encyclical entitled Casti Connubii. It was written in response to the Anglican (then-recent) approval of artificial means of contraception when used in cases of grave necessity.

    Since, therefore, openly departing from the uninterrupted Christian tradition some recently have judged it possible solemnly to declare another doctrine regarding this question, the Catholic Church, ... in order that she may preserve the chastity of the nuptial union from being defiled by this foul stain, ... proclaims anew: any use whatsoever of matrimony exercised in such a way that the act is deliberately frustrated in its natural power to generate life is an offense against the law of God and of nature, and those who indulge in such are branded with the guilt of a grave sin.[2]

    In 1951, Pope Pius XII gave two addresses (English translation entitled Moral Questions Affecting Married Life) which reaffirmed the Church's position that chemical and barrier methods were morally impermissible, but suggested the Rhythm Method might be considered in cases of necessity; this is a position some see implicit in Casti Connubii as well.[citation needed]

    In Humanae Vitae, the 1968 encyclical by Pope Paul VI, the Catholic Church's position was further clarified: artificial contraception is considered a grave sin, but methods of natural family planning, including modern forms that are highly effective, are morally permissable in some circumstances. These methods are known as periodic abstinence and are argued to be morally different from positively modifying the couple's fertility, since the modus operandi is abstinence, albeit not all the time.[citation needed]

    The Church, nevertheless, in urging men to the observance of the precepts of the natural law, which it interprets by its constant doctrine, teaches that each and every marital act must of necessity retain its intrinsic relationship to the procreation of human life.[3]

    In further justification of this position, Pope Paul VI claimed,

    Responsible men can become more deeply convinced of the truth of the doctrine laid down by the Church on this issue if they reflect on the consequences of methods and plans for artificial birth control. Let them first consider how easily this course of action could open wide the way for marital infidelity and a general lowering of moral standards. Not much experience is needed to be fully aware of human weakness and to understand that human beings—and especially the young, who are so exposed to temptation—need incentives to keep the moral law, and it is an evil thing to make it easy for them to break that law. Another effect that gives cause for alarm is that a man who grows accustomed to the use of contraceptive methods may forget the reverence due to a woman, and, disregarding her physical and emotional equilibrium, reduce her to being a mere instrument for the satisfaction of his own desires, no longer considering her as his partner whom he should surround with care and affection.[3]

    Couples seeking marriage in the Catholic Church are in most dioceses required to undergo counseling by a Catholic priest. In the past, priests led couples seeking to delay children to the Rhythm Method, while today they are instructed to point new couples toward the more effective methods of Natural Family Planning.[citation needed]

    Pope John Paul II argued that contraception is contrary to the interpersonal union that sexual intercourse should cement. The most popular form of this argument asserts that sexual union should involve total mutual bodily self-giving if it is not to be a form of self-deceit.
    Offline

    13
    (Original post by yawn)
    Your plea deserves a reply that is fully explained and that cannot be done off the top of my head.

    I'll give it some thought (and will check references) before I personally, respond.
    As an alternative to Napoleon's reliance on wikipedia for authoritative resource, I provide this link:

    http://www.catholic.net/RCC/Periodic...11-96/1/1.html

    The reason I am not writing a 'simple and short' answer is that the question requires much more than that which appears obvious. It delves into theological and philosophical matters.

    It also touches on what I have been saying about conscience.

    The page is a long one - it needs to be since the question does not have a simple answer. You are a bright girl and I'm sure you can cope with it!!
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    I would think that, since Pope John Paul said that people must follow their conscience - and in this case, that to risk giving birth to another child who is destined to die a horrible death before reaching full maturity leads a person's conscience to see the greater good in preventing the conception of a child who would be at high risk - then the second and third condition for a sin to be 'mortal' is not satisfied.
    I don't mind what your personal views are, and your totally justified in having them, however please dont claim that they are Catholic Doctrine!

    to risk giving birth to another child who is destined to die a horrible death before reaching full maturity leads a person's conscience to see the greater good in preventing the conception of a child who would be at high risk
    Are you serious? That is so against the principal of Catholic doctrine! Christ saw everyone as equal and therefore the Church instructs us to do the same, if a woman gives birth to a disabled child she is asked to see it as a blessing rather than a burden. Every conception is seen as worthwile and a joy therefore your suggestion that a couple should use birth control to prevent the birth of a child who may have a "horrible death" is against Catholic teaching. Do you believe a mother should have an abortion if when the baby was born it might die "a horrible death" before they reached "maturity" ?

    the encyclical (which incidentally is policy and not infallible doctrine)
    Of course, in 1600 years there have been only approximately 7 statements which were declared ex-cathedra and were infallible. The last being some 56 years ago.
    Offline

    13
    (Original post by Napoleon)
    I don't mind what your personal views are, and your totally justified in having them, however please dont claim that they are Catholic Doctrine!
    I'm not sure what you are implying here. It is stated quite categorically in Catholic doctrine, the conditions for a sin to be considered 'mortal'. Have a look at the Cathechism of the Catholic Church para 1857 et seq.

    Are you serious? That is so against the principal of Catholic doctrine! Christ saw everyone as equal and therefore the Church instructs us to do the same, if a woman gives birth to a disabled child she is asked to see it as a blessing rather than a burden. Every conception is seen as worthwile and a joy therefore your suggestion that a couple should use birth control to prevent the birth of a child who may have a "horrible death" is against Catholic teaching. Do you believe a mother should have an abortion if when the baby was born it might die "a horrible death" before they reached "maturity" ?
    First; "Procreativity is a special good of the human person.11 Like other basic goods we have a "negative" obligation not to act against it. However, we do not always have a positive obligation to actualize it. Thus, Pope Pius XII stated that: "There are serious motives, such as those often mentioned in the so-called medical, eugenic, economic and social indications, that can exempt for a long time, perhaps even the whole duration of the marriage, from the positive and obligatory carrying out of the act."

    So you see, even Pope Paul VI concedes that there are specific cases in which it is permissable to refrain from the 'procreative intent'.

    Have a look here and see just how profound the considerations are. They do not merit a 'knee-jerk' reaction.

    http://www.catholic.net/rcc/Periodic...12-96/8/8.html

    Like the Catholic Church, I believe the only time that abortion is permissable is when the pregnancy presents such a danger that if the mother remains pregnant she will undoubtedly die.

    Of course, in 1600 years there have been only approximately 7 statements which were declared ex-cathedra and were infallible. The last being some 56 years ago.
    That's irrelevant.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    So you see, even Pope Paul VI concedes that there are specific cases in which it is permissable to refrain from the 'procreative intent'.
    Yes, by abstaining from sex - not by using artifical contraception!
    Offline

    13
    (Original post by Napoleon)
    Yes, by abstaining from sex - not by using artifical contraception!
    But don't you see how, the fact that medical and eugenic problems can exempt couples from the pro-creative act- which the deliberate abstaining from is the 'intrinsic evil' - means that conscience in regards using natural or artificial means of contraception is what is the crux?

    I did say that the whole question was not simply answered - and that it requires deep and profound philiosophical/theological reasoning.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    means that conscience in regards using natural or artificial means of contraception is what is the crux
    Yes of course, however we aren't required to use our conscience as we are clearly guided by Church doctrine.

    Anyway this could go on for ages.

    What does everyone think about Pope Benedict XVI's trip to Turkey?
    Offline

    17
    ReputationRep:
    hello! I went to the National Catholic Youth event in Bham at the weekend, and i hope many young Catholics are ashamed. the website said they expected 4000 people, and Cardinal Murphy and the Archbishop Vincent Nicholls was there. however, on arriving, i noticed that only 700-800 Catholics were there, the majority of whom were Irish. at the Sunday morning mass, maybe 400 people were there. surely there must be more Catholics?
    anyway, it was quite good. the speech by Fr Glenn Murray, the Jesuit was extremely amusing and most excellent. the workshops were also really good but many were cancelled due to lack of people. the one i ended up at was a play about a stereotypical uni student, partying, doing drugs, getting drunk then one day he goes to church and gives up all that stuff and his friends decide that their life is not fulfilling so he converts them. i know out of personal experience this is not what happens to bible bashers like myself. my friends disowned me, and i made some new ones.
    there was also a play about a 25 year old Catholic girl in modern society, who lived with her boyfriend and her mom. but applying Catholicism to her life only meant a) lying to her best friend about why she did not want to go with her to her abortion, despite the Catholic girl regularly sleeping with her own bf and *shock* using contraception being proud that 'we are always very careful as we do not want an abortion' (the play did not think either of these was a problem) b)going to mass on sunday, being catholic 'giving God 1 hour out of 168 hours a week'.

    now i understand that it is hard to be Catholic in modern (secular) society but the whole point of the play was to show that it is possible. now excuse me if im wrong, but i think advocating drugs,premaritial sex, contaception, putting elderly relatives in a care home, co habitation, materialism and drunkeness whilst saying 'as long as you go to mass on sunday and do not abort children but be careful when you have sex' defeats the object.

    in fact, much of the time it seemed to be Catholicism Lite, pick and mix. i hoped to meet some traditional nice Catholics, but many of them were the 'well i go to church sometimes' types. and at the mass, they'd jazzed it up with a band to make it all modern in the National Indoor Arena. it wasnt at all spiritual especially given that the Cardinal and Archbishop were there. even at the eucharist itself, almost nobody knelt. even the recessional hym 'make me a channel of your peace' was replaced by some modern jazzed up rubbish, seemingly aimed at what they think young people like. well i think there SHOULD be a difference between entertainment and worship.
    *is appalled at the *******ized modern version of Mass, thinks even Vatican II would be disgusted*

    where are all the traditional Catholics? anyone like mass at the Bham/ London Oratory? I can much more feel the awe of God there than at some happy-clappy school-assembly mass like the one at the weekend.

    also, seperate question:

    if being a priest is a calling from God, why is the priesthood in decline - is God calling less people? if so, why?
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by shinytoy)
    hello! I went to the National Catholic Youth event in Bham at the weekend, and i hope many young Catholics are ashamed. the website said they expected 4000 people, and Cardinal Murphy and the Archbishop Vincent Nicholls was there. however, on arriving, i noticed that only 700-800 Catholics were there, the majority of whom were Irish. at the Sunday morning mass, maybe 400 people were there. surely there must be more Catholics?
    anyway, it was quite good. the speech by Fr Glenn Murray, the Jesuit was extremely amusing and most excellent. the workshops were also really good but many were cancelled due to lack of people. the one i ended up at was a play about a stereotypical uni student, partying, doing drugs, getting drunk then one day he goes to church and gives up all that stuff and his friends decide that their life is not fulfilling so he converts them. i know out of personal experience this is not what happens to bible bashers like myself. my friends disowned me, and i made some new ones.
    there was also a play about a 25 year old Catholic girl in modern society, who lived with her boyfriend and her mom. but applying Catholicism to her life only meant a) lying to her best friend about why she did not want to go with her to her abortion, despite the Catholic girl regularly sleeping with her own bf and *shock* using contraception being proud that 'we are always very careful as we do not want an abortion' (the play did not think either of these was a problem) b)going to mass on sunday, being catholic 'giving God 1 hour out of 168 hours a week'.

    now i understand that it is hard to be Catholic in modern (secular) society but the whole point of the play was to show that it is possible. now excuse me if im wrong, but i think advocating drugs,premaritial sex, contaception, putting elderly relatives in a care home, co habitation, materialism and drunkeness whilst saying 'as long as you go to mass on sunday and do not abort children but be careful when you have sex' defeats the object.

    in fact, much of the time it seemed to be Catholicism Lite, pick and mix. i hoped to meet some traditional nice Catholics, but many of them were the 'well i go to church sometimes' types. and at the mass, they'd jazzed it up with a band to make it all modern in the National Indoor Arena. it wasnt at all spiritual especially given that the Cardinal and Archbishop were there. even at the eucharist itself, almost nobody knelt. even the recessional hym 'make me a channel of your peace' was replaced by some modern jazzed up rubbish, seemingly aimed at what they think young people like. well i think there SHOULD be a difference between entertainment and worship.
    *is appalled at the *******ized modern version of Mass, thinks even Vatican II would be disgusted*

    where are all the traditional Catholics? anyone like mass at the Bham/ London Oratory? I can much more feel the awe of God there than at some happy-clappy school-assembly mass like the one at the weekend.

    also, seperate question:

    if being a priest is a calling from God, why is the priesthood in decline - is God calling less people? if so, why?
    Come to Cambridge - within a matter of minutes, you'll be running for cover. I have only met ONE liberal Catholic here.
    Offline

    17
    ReputationRep:
    hurrah! really?? thats so cool! i hoped to meet some conservative Catholics. i honestly considered wearing a long skirt and headcoveriung at the final mass, cos the cardinal was there, but i was amazed that everyone turned up in jeans and many girls were showing all kinds of skin, leg and cleavage, and no one covered their head.

    where can i meet some conservative Catholics my own age? i mean there once was a time when Catholic= conservative christian but that is no more.
    worse still, the majority of Catholics at the event for England and Wales were in fact Irish. where did everyone go??
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    if being a priest is a calling from God, why is the priesthood in decline - is God calling less people? if so, why?
    Maybe they aren't hearing the call?

    Also the idea that there is a "shortage of priests" is greatly over exaggerated. In the 1940s-60s there was a major increase in Catholic parishes in England & Wales, largely due to immigration of Catholics (mostly Irish) however many of these have since died, left, but the second and third generations have moved out of the inner-city areas where their parents or grandparents went to Church and now in these areas there are an abundance of Churches with fewer Catholics to be served.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    i honestly considered wearing a long skirt and headcoveriung at the final mass, cos the cardinal was there, but i was amazed that everyone turned up in jeans and many girls were showing all kinds of skin, leg and cleavage, and no one covered their head.
    I wouldn't be too particular about that, Women were in 1917 Code of Canon Law required to have their head covered during mass, however in the 1983 CCL this requirement was dropped.

    Although many in Southern Europe still do wear a mantilla.
    Offline

    17
    ReputationRep:
    when i went to the birmingham oratory , and also some latin masses many women still cover the head and wear skirts and in mexico women cover heads and wear long skirt.

    anyone been to any of the oratories - theres one in bham, london and oxford *is amazed*
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by shinytoy)
    hello! I went to the National Catholic Youth event in Bham at the weekend, and i hope many young Catholics are ashamed. the website said they expected 4000 people, and Cardinal Murphy and the Archbishop Vincent Nicholls was there. however, on arriving, i noticed that only 700-800 Catholics were there, the majority of whom were Irish. at the Sunday morning mass, maybe 400 people were there. surely there must be more Catholics?
    anyway, it was quite good. the speech by Fr Glenn Murray, the Jesuit was extremely amusing and most excellent. the workshops were also really good but many were cancelled due to lack of people. the one i ended up at was a play about a stereotypical uni student, partying, doing drugs, getting drunk then one day he goes to church and gives up all that stuff and his friends decide that their life is not fulfilling so he converts them. i know out of personal experience this is not what happens to bible bashers like myself. my friends disowned me, and i made some new ones.
    there was also a play about a 25 year old Catholic girl in modern society, who lived with her boyfriend and her mom. but applying Catholicism to her life only meant a) lying to her best friend about why she did not want to go with her to her abortion, despite the Catholic girl regularly sleeping with her own bf and *shock* using contraception being proud that 'we are always very careful as we do not want an abortion' (the play did not think either of these was a problem) b)going to mass on sunday, being catholic 'giving God 1 hour out of 168 hours a week'.

    now i understand that it is hard to be Catholic in modern (secular) society but the whole point of the play was to show that it is possible. now excuse me if im wrong, but i think advocating drugs,premaritial sex, contaception, putting elderly relatives in a care home, co habitation, materialism and drunkeness whilst saying 'as long as you go to mass on sunday and do not abort children but be careful when you have sex' defeats the object.

    in fact, much of the time it seemed to be Catholicism Lite, pick and mix. i hoped to meet some traditional nice Catholics, but many of them were the 'well i go to church sometimes' types. and at the mass, they'd jazzed it up with a band to make it all modern in the National Indoor Arena. it wasnt at all spiritual especially given that the Cardinal and Archbishop were there. even at the eucharist itself, almost nobody knelt. even the recessional hym 'make me a channel of your peace' was replaced by some modern jazzed up rubbish, seemingly aimed at what they think young people like. well i think there SHOULD be a difference between entertainment and worship.
    *is appalled at the *******ized modern version of Mass, thinks even Vatican II would be disgusted*

    where are all the traditional Catholics? anyone like mass at the Bham/ London Oratory? I can much more feel the awe of God there than at some happy-clappy school-assembly mass like the one at the weekend.

    also, seperate question:

    if being a priest is a calling from God, why is the priesthood in decline - is God calling less people? if so, why?
    700-800? :eek:

    We had that on our diocesan pilgrimage this year :eek:
    Offline

    13
    (Original post by Napoleon)
    Maybe they aren't hearing the call?

    Also the idea that there is a "shortage of priests" is greatly over exaggerated. In the 1940s-60s there was a major increase in Catholic parishes in England & Wales, largely due to immigration of Catholics (mostly Irish) however many of these have since died, left, but the second and third generations have moved out of the inner-city areas where their parents or grandparents went to Church and now in these areas there are an abundance of Churches with fewer Catholics to be served.
    There's also the boom in vocations in other countries and continents apart from Europe.

    We shouldn't be too parochial and think they are in decline because that appears to be the picture locally.

    The world is a big place, and we are only but a dot in it!
    Offline

    13
    shinytoy - where do you actually stand in relation to your faith commitment?

    You seem to be a veritable whirlwind of contradictions.

    On the one hand you bemoan the Church's stance on contraception and on the other you say you prefer the more traditional aspects of the Church.

    Which is it? :confused:
    Offline

    17
    ReputationRep:
    oh no, if my husband wants the rhythm method thats fine, i just think it is difficult in real life to cope with many kids but i certainly would try it.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by shinytoy)
    hurrah! really?? thats so cool! i hoped to meet some conservative Catholics. i honestly considered wearing a long skirt and headcoveriung at the final mass, cos the cardinal was there, but i was amazed that everyone turned up in jeans and many girls were showing all kinds of skin, leg and cleavage, and no one covered their head.

    where can i meet some conservative Catholics my own age? i mean there once was a time when Catholic= conservative christian but that is no more.
    worse still, the majority of Catholics at the event for England and Wales were in fact Irish. where did everyone go??
    I'm quite serious. I'm not *that* liberal in my beliefs save for the contraception with husband issue which is something I feel strongly about, that and I don't have any problem with gay people - and I've really found myself feeling like the odd one out as the Catholic peeps here are SOOOOOOOO conservative. They probably think I'm going to hell for thinking the aforementioned points.
    Offline

    13
    (Original post by minimo)
    I'm quite serious. I'm not *that* liberal in my beliefs save for the contraception with husband issue which is something I feel strongly about, that and I don't have any problem with gay people - and I've really found myself feeling like the odd one out as the Catholic peeps here are SOOOOOOOO conservative. They probably think I'm going to hell for thinking the aforementioned points.
    Jesus knows what is in your heart - He is your judge, not others.

    But remember - He does see everything!
 
 
 
Poll
Are you chained to your phone?
Useful resources

Groups associated with this forum:

View associated groups

The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

Write a reply...
Reply
Hide
Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.