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    (Original post by flump)
    Thought I would come and have a look at this following your suggestion in another thread. I was surprised to read what you said about abortion. I have always been taught that abortion is wrong in all circumstances, well permissable if it is a secondary result of another treatment e.g. removal of burst fallopian tube in etopic pregnancy, but not as a primary result of action. Has this changed? Strange really as you seem to be more traditional than me in relation to birth control so I was surprised to see you suggesting abortion is permissable.

    I would be interested in any information you have on this.
    Killing an embryo while in the uterus or removing an unviable foetus from the uterus with the intent and purpose to end its life is considered an abortion, and this is my stance.

    Treating a life-threatening, pathological condition that indirectly results in the unborn child dying naturally is considered a tragedy but not an abortion; and you give a good example in the case of ectopic pregnancy.

    I do not advocate any or all direct abortions. It's not a question of who lives or who dies. It's not a battle of mother versus child.
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    (Original post by yawn)
    Killing an embryo while in the uterus or removing an unviable foetus from the uterus with the intent and purpose to end its life is considered an abortion, and this is my stance.

    Treating a life-threatening, pathological condition that indirectly results in the unborn child dying naturally is considered a tragedy but not an abortion; and you give a good example in the case of ectopic pregnancy.

    I do not advocate any or all direct abortions. It's not a question of who lives or who dies. It's not a battle of mother versus child.
    OK your position is the same as mine, I think what you said before was perhaps confusing as you said,

    "Like the Catholic Church, I believe the only time that abortion is permissable is when the pregnancy presents such a danger that if the mother remains pregnant she will undoubtedly die."

    Your use of abortion sounded like you did agree with abortion is some cases, and that you thought that was the teaching of the Church. I thought that couldn't be your view.
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    As I said, in cases of imminent death during pregnancy due to pathological causes, the need for treatment of the mother, even though it results in death of the embryo/foetus is paramount.

    It's like giving drugs to people who are terminally ill to relieve pain: the drug will cause the hastening of death but the relief to the patient of their pain is the reason for giving these drugs, not to bring death prematurely.

    I'm sure, flump that you have viewed my vociferous defence on the protection of life in threads about abortion and euthanasia; and have witnessed the antagonism from pro abortion/euthanasia posters that I have come up against. I'm glad that I have had this opportunity to again stress my views especially since you seem to have misinterpreted them.

    (Original post by flump)
    OK your position is the same as mine
    We do have a difference in position regards contraception though.

    I am against artificial means of contraception which is also in accord with the teaching of the Church whereas you are quite happy to disregard the official position and be guided by local priests who don't have the autonomy to go against the teaching.
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    (Original post by yawn)
    As I said, in cases of imminent death during pregnancy due to pathological causes, the need for treatment of the mother, even though it results in death of the embryo/foetus is paramount.
    How would you view a case where aborting the baby was the only way to save the mother? Say woman develops some sort of heart problem, doctors say to continue with the pregnancy would be fatal, there isn't a treatment that is going to enable her to continue with the pregnancy. Difficult case I know, and I suppose rare, but would you go with aborting the baby or think she has to place her life in God's hands?
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    (Original post by flump)
    How would you view a case where aborting the baby was the only way to save the mother? Say woman develops some sort of heart problem, doctors say to continue with the pregnancy would be fatal, there isn't a treatment that is going to enable her to continue with the pregnancy. Difficult case I know, and I suppose rare, but would you go with aborting the baby or think she has to place her life in God's hands?
    I personally know of a woman that this scenario happened to. She developed rheumatic fever in the first trimester of her pregnancy. She was told that the burden of the pregnancy would put an intolerable strain on her heart and that she should have the baby aborted since she was risking her life...and might even deprive her other five children of their mother.

    She rejected the advice, resisted the guilt feeling that she felt she was being manipulated to a certain extent by, and carried on to deliver a healthy child at full term. She recovered herself and despite having to take prophylactic penicillin from time to time is able to lead a full, active and fulfilling life being a mother (and now a grandmother too.)

    The thing is, flump, that doctors can get it wrong and if this mother had listened to them she would have aborted a child for no good reason.

    What would I do if it were me? I would do as she did, and put my trust in God rather than my doctor. That, after all, is what faith is...trust that God is with you.
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    (Original post by yawn)
    I personally know of a woman that this scenario happened to. She developed rheumatic fever in the first trimester of her pregnancy. She was told that the burden of the pregnancy would put an intolerable strain on her heart and that she should have the baby aborted since she was risking her life...and might even deprive her other five children of their mother.

    She rejected the advice, resisted the guilt feeling that she felt she was being manipulated to a certain extent by, and carried on to deliver a healthy child at full term. She recovered herself and despite having to take prophylactic penicillin from time to time is able to lead a full, active and fulfilling life being a mother (and now a grandmother too.)

    The thing is, flump, that doctors can get it wrong and if this mother had listened to them she would have aborted a child for no good reason.

    What would I do if it were me? I would do as she did, and put my trust in God rather than my doctor. That, after all, is what faith is...trust that God is with you.
    Well I know what I would do. My daughter was born by emergency section, horrible experience, when things suddenly went badly wrong and they wouldn't even wait for my husband to say anything to me, just grabbed the bed and ran. Before the anaesthetic kicked in I said a prayer and asked God to either let two of us come through it or, if He had to take one, to take me not my baby. Its sort of nice to know as in the past lots of people have said to me that I would feel differently if it was a real situation and not just theory but it was still a nasty experience. We both came through by the way.
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    That's the thing, isn't it?

    You know that God is with you when your faith is really put to the test in life or death situations and you place your trust firmly in Him...as both of us have done in the past, albeit in differing circumstances.
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    A one off happening of a case where someone managed to survive due to ignoring advice is definitely not a way to set a precedent.
    Go on the advice and say no way, no abortions, due to biblical interpretation, fair enough. However, Do not use some anecdotal evidence as a way to make medical decisions!
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    (Original post by Philosoraptor)
    However, Do not use some anecdotal evidence as a way to make medical decisions!
    As soon as I saw this, I thought...'I wonder if the poster is a medical student'...and sure enough, you are!

    You might have missed the point here. A person can be given medical advice which they can choose to accept or not - and by putting their trust in God why should they act in accordance with the advice given that might be wrong?
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    In that case listen to no-one! Any advice can be wrong. If there's a very high chance of something happening - it tends to be a good idea to listen to the advice. If you jumped out of a 4th story building you MIGHT survive - but you probably wouldn't. Of course there will be a story where someone has survived this.

    I usually agree with you yawn and admire your adherence to doctrine. However, when it comes to medical issues I find myself almost scared of the advice some people give. Not particularly yours - especially if you are sure that God has told you something. However what if you felt it was right that you should stop the birth as you are meant to go and do something etc?

    I'll use a quote I like with the order changed to emphasise my point :p: :
    Religion can purify science from idolatry and false absolutes. Science can purify religion from error and superstition.

    I'm sure you'll know who said that.
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    I dont think yawn was necessarily giving out medical advice....more just saying that everyone has a right to do what they feel best...and that doctors arent always right....like we put a lot of trust in our medical professionals but they aren't infallable.

    i also know of people who have been advice...to the point of the doctors practically despairing at the womans decisions..to have their pregnancy terminated because they suspect there is a chance the child has a deformity/defect (and the woman doesnt want to test because of the risk of abortion (this is a few years ago))...eg. spina bifida etc ...and the child has turned out to be fine....

    obviously this is not always the case...but i also know of people who have chosen to keep their child with say down syndrome and other conditions. Its all about the choice that the mother makes..not the doctors...(or thats how it should be..although i think many doctors today cant understand these view points sometimes which can cause problems)

    Anyway...Happy Easter everyone....my sister came bouncing in to my room this morning...saying look look...opened my window...and snow fell in
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    Happy Easter everyone too.

    Again, my point on anecdotes still stands.
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    yeah i see your anecdote point

    but im not telling people what they should or shouldn't do...which is what doctors are doing..which is what really concerns me...and yes their suggestions are based on *some* knowledge...but they are by no means expected to foresee the future or whatever...

    i feel that whatever my view on abortions etc i will talk about to people and possibly influence them if they want to discuss it..if they dont want to then i think i can remain objective....my concern is that some doctors excert far more influence over people who arent as informed as them so some people seem not always to realise the element of choice they do have...doctors can be very persuasive i feel and almost pressurise people into things (sometimes for better, sometimes for worse...i feel)

    do u see my point?? i dont really know the extent of the "problem" as i percieve it...and sometimes as i have said the influence of doctors over people can be for their benefit (like pushing people into an operation they really need, when they are obviously uncertain probs because scared of the the operation/consequences, kinda happened with my mum, that was the surgeons though not the medics...they had their own private arguement going on :P )

    what do u think bout this?? i suppose at the end of the day..doctors are just doing their best..but i suppose the fact that doctors that oppose abortions probably opt out and refer/dont see most of these cases(eg work in a different dewpartment) then its the doctors who have no problems with abortion that these women are seeing????

    (sorry if these seems to have gone vaguely off topic...it is due to my concern about people being pushed into abortions!)
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    (Original post by tessa)
    yeah i see your anecdote point

    but im not telling people what they should or shouldn't do...which is what doctors are doing..which is what really concerns me...and yes their suggestions are based on *some* knowledge...but they are by no means expected to foresee the future or whatever...

    i feel that whatever my view on abortions etc i will talk about to people and possibly influence them if they want to discuss it..if they dont want to then i think i can remain objective....my concern is that some doctors excert far more influence over people who arent as informed as them so some people seem not always to realise the element of choice they do have...doctors can be very persuasive i feel and almost pressurise people into things (sometimes for better, sometimes for worse...i feel)

    do u see my point?? i dont really know the extent of the "problem" as i percieve it...and sometimes as i have said the influence of doctors over people can be for their benefit (like pushing people into an operation they really need, when they are obviously uncertain probs because scared of the the operation/consequences, kinda happened with my mum, that was the surgeons though not the medics...they had their own private arguement going on :P )

    what do u think bout this?? i suppose at the end of the day..doctors are just doing their best..but i suppose the fact that doctors that oppose abortions probably opt out and refer/dont see most of these cases(eg work in a different dewpartment) then its the doctors who have no problems with abortion that these women are seeing????

    (sorry if these seems to have gone vaguely off topic...it is due to my concern about people being pushed into abortions!)
    Yes I know what you mean. When I was pregnant I got some flack off doctors at hospital checks as I refused some tests, blood tests to indicate risk of downs or spina bifida. I was told by one young doctor that I didn't have a choice, he got really irate and started shouting at me and said it was because I was scared of needles. The Consultant was fine about it, asked me why and I explained I wasn't having an abortion whatever results were and it was a waste of time and he said he was OK with that but if I felt I wanted to be prepared if there was a problem I could have the tests and there would be no pressure to do anything afterwards. I chose not to do it but I did have scans, just because I really wanted to see the baby really.
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    Ah ok, some might do this, but doctors CAN physically only advise! The old days of doctor knows best now shut up are gone. Are any of you seriously trying to say a doctor forced a needle into you/pushed you into an operating theatre without permission etc? Of course not.
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    (Original post by Philosoraptor)
    Ah ok, some might do this, but doctors CAN physically only advise! The old days of doctor knows best now shut up are gone. Are any of you seriously trying to say a doctor forced a needle into you/pushed you into an operating theatre without permission etc? Of course not.
    No I would never say I was forced but I think I was bullied. Don't know why he had such a thing about it, as I said the Consultant was fine about it and very supportive.
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    (Original post by Philosoraptor)
    Ah ok, some might do this, but doctors CAN physically only advise! The old days of doctor knows best now shut up are gone. Are any of you seriously trying to say a doctor forced a needle into you/pushed you into an operating theatre without permission etc? Of course not.
    teehee..well i was very ill when i was 14..too ill to consent to anything and was in hospital for 4 months...but obviously that was all under my parents permission (i assume... )

    but yeah in all seriousness

    like i said obviously i have no idea ..having never been in that situation myself (or working in obestetrics etc) but i have heard of women who like flump have felt bullied by their obestetrian etc (or whatever they are called) which is where my concern arose from.. these women are strong minded and know what they want so fight for their wishes to be upheld (they do tend to be religious..whether thats relevant or not i dont know) but it worries me that people who arent quite as strong or so sure of their opinions will and are being bullied into things they dont fully understand the consequences/extent of.

    but yeah i think you get my point now

    on a completely different note...it was soo cute at church today a little girl (maybe about 4years old) was running round at the back and when the priest was spraying water she kinda of got tangled up in the group with the priest and altar servers etc and when the priest had made his way back up to the front i saw her standing there still jumping up and down in excitement saying "Father John said hello to me..Father John said hello to me" lol...it was sooo cute.... childrens excitement at what seem to us the smallest things is sooo amazing i find lol...
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    im catholic, i feel welcome.
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    Heh, couldn't gather whether that was sarcastic or not?
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    no not sarcastic. well maybe the 'i feel welcome' part but on the whole, no not sarcastic.
 
 
 
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