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    Against whom did Gerrard play at RB for England in Portugal 2004? I cannot recall a single game in which he's played full back for England but I may well be mistaken. And if he did play there how on earth was he skinned by Serginho the brazilian at the Euro championships? I think some people here are confusing being made to play as a conventional right back and simply finding yourself in other areas of the pitch as SG invariably does. He did not make his name at right back, that's a silly thing to say but he did fill in at RB for half a season early under Houllier and also played there occasionaly for the youth teams. Incidentally, he was also pushed back there when Henchoz was taken off in the UEFA Cup final vs Alaves, so he has a tedency to be used there in European finals and Houllier often used him tucked in on the right of a diamond to make way for both Didi and Gary Mac, but it was often a defensive move (sometimes against the likes of Giggs etc.) rather than an attacking one as is the case with Benitez.

    Having watched Gerrard for so many years he has only 2 weaknesses to his game IMHO but both are improving and at this rate I think will be almost eradicated from his game in 2 years time when he [and Liverpool] will probably reach their peak.

    a) Tactical discipline to sit. And I mean sit and sit only. Like Makelele, like Hamann. He doesn't have the mentality to do it on a regular basis because his game is all hustle and bustle, constant action. It's not in his mindset to do it but on occasion, can do so. His tackling and reading of the play is fantastic, especially given his rash challenges and red card offences have almost entirely been taken out of his game. He is maturing day by day. Add to that his simply tireless energy and you have a fearsome footballer who covers every inch of the grass he plays on.

    b) Hollywood balls. Again, getting better but not there yet. At times he's been under pressure to do everything himself, these days less so and he's becoming more intellegent and simple with his passing and playmaking. He's lest wasteful in posession and trusts his team-mates more but is still susceptible to 60 yard passes which often go to feet but which sometimes goes out of play. Improving aswell.
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    (Original post by Murkery)
    Go on then mate - list them - because from following Gerrards career since he was first making headlines at the Academy I can't think of any...

    Go on mate, Tell me some other Liverpool games where he's ****ed up defensively, go on, Tell me when he's gone into right back and done a bad job, when he's cost us games... come on mate - I'm ****ing interested to find out as I must be wasting money going to see Liverpool play if I can't even notice what the players qualities are.
    CL final first half - and don't say apart from that! - it was a prime example of gerrard's defensive incapabilties. Extra of the CL final aswell - almost cost Liverpool the game. He may be able to get away with it in the EPL against the likes of Wigan on occasion, but at the highest level, he looks poor.

    Also, his performances for England have been pretty mediocre while playing in the DM role - Euro 2004 shows that at the highest level, Gerrards defesive abilities (or lack of) get exposed.
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    So one cant judge Gerrard's versatility or defensive ability based on 30 minutes of extra time vs Milan but can go onto slate him for letting one cross get into the box despite being pretty sensational for the other 29 minutes?
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    Incidentally, since everyone is so hyped up about the first half vs Milan, Carragher and Sami had the piss taken out of them by Crespo, Shevchenko and Kaka. Alonso couldn't keep up with Pirlo. No one played well. Ship em out I guess.
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    (Original post by kpg)
    So one cant judge Gerrard's versatility or defensive ability based on 30 minutes of extra time vs Milan but can go onto slate him for letting one cross get into the box despite being pretty sensational for the other 29 minutes?
    Yes they can judge him on 30 mins of extra time. It was a key error in LFC most important match - he's lucky it didnt cost them. He generally wasn't that brilliant at right back.

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    (Original post by kpg)
    Incidentally, since everyone is so hyped up about the first half vs Milan, Carragher and Sami had the piss taken out of them by Crespo, Shevchenko and Kaka. Alonso couldn't keep up with Pirlo. No one played well. Ship em out I guess.
    Any defense would get murdered if they are not playing a holding midfielder. What exactly do you mean that Alonso couldn't keep up with Pirlo? Pirlo does not run about the field that much, he is a deep lying playmaker like Alonso.
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    (Original post by ba_ba1)
    Yes they can judge him on 30 mins of extra time. It was a key error in LFC most important match - he's lucky it didnt cost them. He generally wasn't that brilliant at right back.
    Mate, we had no choice in the matter. We were dead on our feet, with all sorts of injuries. Hamann played through and converted a penalty with a broken foot. We were running on fumes. Gerrard had to drop deep, further and further until playing as right back, by which time he was knackered. Facing a fresh Serginho isn't much fun when you're cramped up and spent.
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    It was Pirlo who did the most damage that night. He (and Kaka obviously) wandered around the pitch like he was invisible, neither Xabi (who out of the two is given more defensive responsibility) or Stevie got the ball of him and subsequently let Kaka roam free aswell. Hamann was brought onto stop Pirlo getting the ball and as a result they were no where near as destructive in the 2nd half.

    There's an interview with Rafa somewhere online which basically says all this, I'll try and find it.

    He generally wasn't that brilliant at right back.
    Personally I (and it seems everyone who watched the match, youre actually the first person I've encountered to hold that view but fair enough) thought he was nothing short of sensational as he was also running on an empty tank and had little support from Smicer. we'll just have to agree to disagree on that point.

    Yes they can judge him on 30 mins of extra time. It was a key error in LFC most important match - he's lucky it didnt cost them
    You say

    well it was only 30 minutes of football.
    but also go on about 1 cross. Incidentally (and this is actually out of interest), can you give other examples where he has been really poor defensively FOR LIVERPOOL (my memory of England games is minimal) in recent years?
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    (Original post by ba_ba1)
    How many deflected goals? Perhaps one or two over the past year (not that many).

    Last season he scored a grand total of 3 penalties. The season before it was 2.
    I stand corrected then on this issue, im not to sure what the other question was in this post though
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    This is a never ending arugment that will always be brought up and have people split over. But what defines a great player, and how can we apply this definition to these two to see whos better?
    More successful? Not necessarily. Steven gerrard has every club trophy a player can win, except the ever eluding (but seemingly closer) premership title, while lampard has the premership trophy and the wonderful league cup in his cabinet. Clearly gerrard is more successful trophy wise, but as know players can be successful and not really play a major part in it. (josemi, diao champions league final certainly) so this isnt a sure fire way.
    Ability? No-one can argue the two are both exceptional athletes. Lampard is born with natural fitness, which over 2 seasons? consecutive can not hide. While gerrard is blessed with speed,balance, quick turning and a drive. This aside, gerrard effectively wins the battle here. I cannot think of the top of my head an ability that lampard strives in ahead of lampard. Admitely lampard scores more goals, but who scores more important goals than olympiakos,milan,man unt etc. They are both excellent strikers of the ball but i have to say lampard has his fair stroke of luck (incidentally the whole chelski team do!) and if he was crouch, his tally would certainly be reduced by all these 'own goals'. Passing is a totally diffrent cup of tea though, although i admit lampard is an average passer of the ball and gerrard suffers from 'match winning hollywood ball' syndrome he stands out with his passin over lampard.
    Defensive ability, weve been over this before. Neither are created for a defensive mould but if it comes to is, and it often has gerrard can slot into right back (wether he does it well is ur opinion)
    So what else decides who is better? Potential? Well with gerrard at the ripe age of 24, he has a good 3-4 years ahead of him before he effectively reaches the peak of his career technically and physically. Lampard is at the top of his peak now and will soon be on the way back down as his age catches up (sounds mad to say that about a 27 yr old) although maldini, hyypia etc show age is not everything.
    What about his surroundings? Does a players surroundings help them come a better player? Surely lampard would not stand out if they did not have makele there to hold the defensive line, and im sure gerrard would be less effective if sissoko and hamman were removed.
    I type this with my liverpool tinted glasses on, and the fact ive watched gerrard singly carry my team through cup win after cup win, Gerrard is the better player now, and will only continue to grow now he has no distractions of the pitch with the chelsea saga.
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    (Original post by Raindance)
    Gerrard having a blinding season, must have something to do with it. He's matured as captain, and is arguably creating some pretty football. I think a lot of it has to do with Benitez, and his moulding and channeling. Under Houllier it'd be pass out of defense to Gerrard, who'd pick it up, run 50 yards, cross it into the box, meet the cross himself, slide it into the net, solve world hunger, eliminate AIDs and the like. But that meant the team could only ever be as good as Gerrard, nothing more. No Gerrard, no team. He felt the weight of that, got the silver tongues niggling in his ears in the England camp, and enjoyed the footy less and less. The grass was quite simply greener on the other side.

    Now look at the midfield. He's playing with arguably the best deep-lying playmaker in Europe in Alonso (the other Pirlo, for me); Momo "search and destroy" Sissoko, a human wrecking ball; and a rejuvenating Harry Kewell. He doesn't need to be everywhere and everything, and is far more effective as a result. He's fit, he's injury free, and is consistantly playing to a high standard. Although that's not to say that Lampard doesn't and isn't, I just feel that Gerrard is offering and providing more at this stage.
    I'd go along with that. Liverpool v Chelsea for the FA Cup final then?
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    (Original post by NDGAARONDI)
    I'd go along with that. Liverpool v Chelsea for the FA Cup final then?
    Looking forward to the Community Shield already.
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    Hopefully it will be more entertaining than the last FA Cup final. Mind you, I quite liked the last Community Shield.
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    (Original post by kpg)
    It was Pirlo who did the most damage that night. He (and Kaka obviously) wandered around the pitch like he was invisible, neither Xabi (who out of the two is given more defensive responsibility) or Stevie got the ball of him and subsequently let Kaka roam free aswell. Hamann was brought onto stop Pirlo getting the ball and as a result they were no where near as destructive in the 2nd half.

    There's an interview with Rafa somewhere online which basically says all this, I'll try and find it.



    Personally I (and it seems everyone who watched the match, youre actually the first person I've encountered to hold that view but fair enough) thought he was nothing short of sensational as he was also running on an empty tank and had little support from Smicer. we'll just have to agree to disagree on that point.



    You say



    but also go on about 1 cross. Incidentally (and this is actually out of interest), can you give other examples where he has been really poor defensively FOR LIVERPOOL (my memory of England games is minimal) in recent years?
    Pirlo plays deep though, so it wasn't really Alonso's job to track him. Alonso is not a holding midfielder and therefore shouldn't really be given any defensive responsibility.

    the quote "it was only 30 minutes" is taken out of context. Someone was arguing, saying "oh it was only one cross that he let by" - and my response was it was only 30 minutes and he gave the biggest opportunity in the match to score. If it was more than 30 minutes, Milan would have had 2 or 3 chances like that.

    And no i can't give any other examples - he is normally given an attacking role at liverpool so its hard to judge his defensive skills, unless he is given a defensive role, which happens quite rarely for liverpool.

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    (Original post by calderstonesLFC)
    I stand corrected then on this issue, im not to sure what the other question was in this post though
    so just decided to ignore the rest of my post?

    Take away Lampards pens and deflected goals - he still has more goals than gerrard. He also has more assists - therefore you were wrong on this issue. Also Look at the stats on gerrards and lampards pens for this season as a percentage of their total goals - gerrard's is higher - again you are wrong.

    Also you chose to ignore my post on the Del Piero offside decision??
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    so just decided to ignore the rest of my post?

    Take away Lampards pens and deflected goals - he still has more goals than gerrard. He also has more assists - therefore you were wrong on this issue. Also Look at the stats on gerrards and lampards pens for this season as a percentage of their total goals - gerrard's is higher - again you are wrong.
    I stated that i stood corrected on this issue and had my facts wrong, but youve just ignored my enitre post about 4 up.
    The difference between del pieros offside decision and Chelseas wrestling of a keeper is that while one is a human misjudgement and the other was clearly an attempt to cheat. Please , im not ignoring your posts on purpose i just skim the main points when im in a hurry
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    Could not be bothered to read through 7 pages, so sorry if I'm repeating myself.

    Gerrard is a better player than Lampard will ever be. It's a cliché I know, but he is the ultimate all-round player. Far better defensively than Lampard, better range of passing and has the ability to drive his team forward in a way no other player can. He can play anywhere across the midfield, and even as a full-back (like against Argentina) whereas Lampard can only play in the cantre. Lampard is quality but unbelievebly over-rated, makes his name from 30 yard screamers, but for every one that goes in, he'll hit 50 into the crowd and scuff a load more. Basically Lampard is a very good player in an awesome team.

    So yeah, Gerrard is better (and Alan Hansen agrees)
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    (Original post by calderstonesLFC)
    I stated that i stood corrected on this issue and had my facts wrong, but youve just ignored my enitre post about 4 up.
    The difference between del pieros offside decision and Chelseas wrestling of a keeper is that while one is a human misjudgement and the other was clearly an attempt to cheat. Please , im not ignoring your posts on purpose i just skim the main points when im in a hurry
    Yep you're right - you had your facts wrong. Your other post was very good, but i disagree that Lampard is an average past - his assist record is not that of an average passer. I don't think potential should come into either - we're talking about who is better now and not in the future. I don't really think defensive ability should come into it since they are both attacking midfielders, and no defensively minded at all. It would be like claiming Gerrard is better than Ronaldinho since Ronaldinho is rubbish at defending. Both Lamaprd and Gerrard are piss poor at defending IMO.

    As for the decisions - both were human error - whether it was cheating or not is irrelevant, as it was the wrong decision in both cases.
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    (Original post by ba_ba1)
    Pirlo plays deep though, so it wasn't really Alonso's job to track him. Alonso is not a holding midfielder and therefore shouldn't really be given any defensive responsibility.
    We have quite different ideas of what his role constitutes. He's a deep-lying playmaker, yes, but that also entails defensive responsibilities. I agree that he should have stuck to Kaka like glue - this was possibly a downfall in Benitez's planning, worsened by conceding an early goal.

    the quote "it was only 30 minutes" is taken out of context. Someone was arguing, saying "oh it was only one cross that he let by" - and my response was it was only 30 minutes and he gave the biggest opportunity in the match to score. If it was more than 30 minutes, Milan would have had 2 or 3 chances like that.
    Read the above posts, you'll realise that these were extraordinary circumstances. Out of his normal position, mentally and physically drained, up against a fresh Brazilian. Gerrard did remarkably well to limit it to one chance.

    And no i can't give any other examples - he is normally given an attacking role at liverpool so its hard to judge his defensive skills, unless he is given a defensive role, which happens quite rarely for liverpool.
    Finally, you're beginning to understand us. He plays in advanced positions, yes, but this does not exclude him from his defensive duties which he consistantly undertakes and is more than capable of fulfilling. Strictly as a player, he has the attributes of a very good holding midfielder. However, he has been channeled into the player he is and so does not have the defensive mentality and disclipline truly needed.
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    (Original post by Raindance)
    We have quite different ideas of what his role constitutes. He's a deep-lying playmaker, yes, but that also entails defensive responsibilities. I agree that he should have stuck to Kaka like glue - this was possibly a downfall in Benitez's planning, worsened by conceding an early goal.
    For me, a deep lying playmaker sits infront of the back four and primarily, they distribute the play from there, whether it be long balls or short balls. At Milan, Pirlo does hardly any defending - its all done by Gattuso. Same story at barca with Xavi - Edmilson does the defending. It would seem Rafa has learnt his lesson in that he always starts with Hamman/Sissoko now.


    Read the above posts, you'll realise that these were extraordinary circumstances. Out of his normal position, mentally and physically drained, up against a fresh Brazilian. Gerrard did remarkably well to limit it to one chance.
    Perhaps - you can twist the argument whatever way you want. I could say Serginho is not really that good a winger (rarely gets a start for milan) and is over the hill (which is true), as shown by the purchase of Jankulovski.


    Finally, you're beginning to understand us. He plays in advanced positions, yes, but this does not exclude him from his defensive duties which he consistantly undertakes and is more than capable of fulfilling. Strictly as a player, he has the attributes of a very good holding midfielder. However, he has been channeled into the player he is and so does not have the defensive mentality and disclipline truly needed.
    I'm sorry but you contradict yourself. You say he has the attributes to be a DM, but then say he doesnt have the defesive mentality or discipline to be a DM midfielder. Surely this means he is lacking the attributes to be a DM??

    Gerrard really doesnt do that much defending - not more than your average right winger would do.
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    (Original post by ba_ba1)
    For me, a deep lying playmaker sits infront of the back four and primarily, they distribute the play from there, whether it be long balls or short balls. At Milan, Pirlo does hardly any defending - its all done by Gattuso. Same story at barca with Xavi - Edmilson does the defending. It would seem Rafa has learnt his lesson in that he always starts with Hamman/Sissoko now.
    Well, no, he hasn't always started Sissoko or Hamann with Alonso. But yes, it has bulked up our midfield against the stronger teams and is arguably a ploy we should have used against Milan. Hindsight's all well and good, but bloody useless regarding the event itself.

    Perhaps - you can twist the argument whatever way you want. I could say Serginho is not really that good a winger (rarely gets a start for milan) and is over the hill (which is true), as shown by the purchase of Jankulovski.
    It's inconsequential, it's an extraordinary circumstance. He performed heroics that night, and that's what he'll be remembered for. End of.

    I'm sorry but you contradict yourself. You say he has the attributes to be a DM, but then say he doesnt have the defesive mentality or discipline to be a DM midfielder. Surely this means he is lacking the attributes to be a DM??
    Not as such, but I should clarify myself. He has the brain and the footballing ability to act as a defensive midfielder, yet not the inclination. I wouldn't want to use him as such, it's detrimental to both him and the team. Again, we're stating the contrary to your claim that he can't defend.
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    (Original post by Raindance)
    Well, no, he hasn't always started Sissoko or Hamann with Alonso. But yes, it has bulked up our midfield against the stronger teams and is arguably a ploy we should have used against Milan. Hindsight's all well and good, but bloody useless regarding the event itself.
    YEs sometimes he has started with Alonso and Gerrard against the lesser EPL teams where they can get away with it. At the highest level, Alonso and Gerrard, alone, in the middle will not work.

    It's inconsequential, it's an extraordinary circumstance. He performed heroics that night, and that's what he'll be remembered for. End of.
    What do you mean its inconsequential? He could hardly contain a 2nd string left wing back who is some 33 years old, and almost gave away the game to Milan.


    Not as such, but I should clarify myself. He has the brain and the footballing ability to act as a defensive midfielder, yet not the inclination. I wouldn't want to use him as such, it's detrimental to both him and the team. Again, we're stating the contrary to your claim that he can't defend.
    Being disciplined and having the right mentality is a key part in defending. If he doesnt have this then i'm not so sure he can defend (especially at the highest level). The few times he has been given the defensive roles, he has been exposed.
 
 
 
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