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    I dont get this "Benitez has learnt from his mistake" line? Gerrard has played 'in the hole' (or with the back up of 2 midfielders behind him) far less this season than last year. Sissoko (who's form has kept Didi out) has played the large number of games he has because of our inability to find a right winger in January and hence having to play Gerrard on the right. It's only in the CL games against Chelsea have we really gone back to the 4231 with Gerrard in a central 'free' role. At the moment we're playing something like 4132 with Momo doing the sitting and Kewell/Gerrard and to a lesser extent, Alonso, given semi-free roles while being able to keep the shape of the team.

    When we sign Simao or whoever it maybe either this month or in the summer I'd fully expect Gerrard to move back centrally while also keeping Crouch & Morientes/Cisse/Garcia in the majority of our games.
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    Gerrard! He's also the fittest player ever.
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    (Original post by jamlan)
    Playing Hamann/Socks allows Gerrard to get forward more

    Some would, but most would say yes

    I wouldn't blame him switching sides to hack down Gary Neville, i think most people wouldn't
    He play Hamman Sissoko because he needs someone who can defend in midfield. He obviosuyl thinks Gerrard is incapable of this.

    How can you say that most would say yes? you havn't asked them.
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    (Original post by kpg)
    I dont get this "Benitez has learnt from his mistake" line? Gerrard has played 'in the hole' (or with the back up of 2 midfielders behind him) far less this season than last year. Sissoko (who's form has kept Didi out) has played the large number of games he has because of our inability to find a right winger in January and hence having to play Gerrard on the right. It's only in the CL games against Chelsea have we really gone back to the 4231 with Gerrard in a central 'free' role. At the moment we're playing something like 4132 with Momo doing the sitting and Kewell/Gerrard and to a lesser extent, Alonso, given semi-free roles while being able to keep the shape of the team.

    When we sign Simao or whoever it maybe either this month or in the summer I'd fully expect Gerrard to move back centrally while also keeping Crouch & Morientes/Cisse/Garcia in the majority of our games.
    Bentiez learnt from his mistake - not to play Gerrard and Alonso together, unless they play a holding midfielder (Hamman/Sissoko) to the defesive duties which Alonso and Gerrard are incapable of doing.

    If you go back to putting Gerrard and Alonso in the middle with no holding player, you will be out of the CL in no time.
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    Can we just agree that, irrespective over which one you prefer, they are both great players for their club and that we are lucky to have them in the Premiership?
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    (Original post by SlyPie)
    Gerrard! He's also the fittest player ever.
    Nah. The one on our left is fit here.
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    (Original post by ba_ba1)
    No its not. Its based on the fact that whenever Gerrard has been given defesive duties at the highest level, he has done rubbish.
    Dear oh dear..

    The fact ey...

    You do know Liverpool existed before Benitez was manager? Just because he usually plays the more advanced role in a midfield/ on the right now doesnt mean he didnt play a more conventional center midfield position in the past when he would have to defend

    When Gerrard used to partner Hamann/Gary Mac/Murphy in the center of Midfield, he used to be up and down the pitch like a yo-yo, defending and attacking, and there is no doubt that defending was a large part of Houllier's tactics as whenver we went 1-0 up we would sit on it and all 11 players would have to defend... Now by my memory, under Houllier we won the league cup twice, the FA Cup, The Uefa Cup, the Super Cup and the Charity shield - Now If being an integral figure, in the center of midfield for a defensive team that wins 6 trophies is "doing rubbish" then you must have ****ing high standards. Again you can only give one example of him making a mistake standing in at right back whilst Smicer was off with cramp. Where as everyone else is quoting years worth of evidence and you just dismiss it saying its "a fact that whenever he has been given defensive duties at the highest level he has done rubbish" - thats not a fact, thats absolute *******s.

    I reckon Gerrard will be playing right wing on Sunday, so if you actually have time to watch a game of football, watch the amount of help he gives Finnan at Right back. Also look at the amount he chases back and watch the tackles he makes and look how many times he wins back possesion.

    I can't even believe im arguing about this...
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    (Original post by ba_ba1)
    Bentiez learnt from his mistake - not to play Gerrard and Alonso together, unless they play a holding midfielder (Hamman/Sissoko) to the defesive duties which Alonso and Gerrard are incapable of doing.

    If you go back to putting Gerrard and Alonso in the middle with no holding player, you will be out of the CL in no time.
    He has done that only a handful (all three Chelsea games and maybe a couple of the early away games) of times this season. There is no substance to support your argument. It is clear as daylight that Gerrard is our best option on the right of midfield at the moment hence why he is largely playing there and why Sissoko is playing the number of game he has done. It hasnt been a case of "oh, he was poor for 45mins in Istanbul, I'll move him to the right wing so we can play Sissoko or Hamann" which is what you're saying. We shall see about your argument if and when we sign a decent wide right player this month and SG is moved back infield. Given our recent success, I'd be shocked if we changed the way we are playing at the moment except against really top oposition for whom Benitez prefers to play a 3 man central midfield as he also did at Valencia.

    I'd like to see how many other people hold your opinion to be honest. II have seen (and agree with) opinions that he cannot play strictly as a defensive midfielder but dont know anyone to say that defending is non existant in his game. It's a farcical statement IMO and I would actually question how often you have seen the man play for 90 minutes on a regular basis but then again, I'm biased so I would say that. Defending is an integral part of a box-box midfielder's game and Gerrard certainly does it well even if he cannot be a specialist at it.

    This discussion has gone beyond tedious.
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    (Original post by kpg)
    He has done that only a handful (all three Chelsea games and maybe a couple of the early away games) of times this season. There is no substance to support your argument. It is clear as daylight that Gerrard is our best option on the right of midfield at the moment hence why he is largely playing there and why Sissoko is playing the number of game he has done. It hasnt been a case of "oh, he was poor for 45mins in Istanbul, I'll move him to the right wing so we can play Sissoko or Hamann" which is what you're saying. We shall see about your argument if and when we sign a decent wide right player this month and SG is moved back infield. Given our recent success, I'd be shocked if we changed the way we are playing at the moment except against really top oposition for whom Benitez prefers to play a 3 man central midfield as he also did at Valencia.

    I'd like to see how many other people hold your opinion to be honest. II have seen (and agree with) opinions that he cannot play strictly as a defensive midfielder but dont know anyone to say that defending is non existant in his game. It's a farcical statement IMO and I would actually question how often you have seen the man play for 90 minutes on a regular basis but then again, I'm biased so I would say that. Defending is an integral part of a box-box midfielder's game and Gerrard certainly does it well even if he cannot be a specialist at it.

    This discussion has gone beyond tedious.
    Very good post...

    Good points well put.
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    (Original post by NDGAARONDI)
    Can we just agree that, irrespective over which one you prefer, they are both great players for their club and that we are lucky to have them in the Premiership?
    I think we have, pages ago. It came down to a Chelsea fan arguing that the few occasions he's seen Gerrard holding he hasn't measured up to a Hamann or a Makalele. Thus meaning he cannot defend, or is "piss poor" at it, as is eloquently put. Then we have a fair few Liverpool fans pointing out that you don't need to be a specialist defensive midfielder to have defensive ability; that he has it in abundance as a result of his formulative years in such defensive positions. In short, that Gerrard has now a 'free' role (evolved from his box-to-box role throughout the years), and no longer has the need or mentality to exclusively sit.

    The point to be picked up on is his future position within the team, whether centrally or out wide, of which there are merits to both.
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    (Original post by Murkery)
    Dear oh dear..

    The fact ey...

    You do know Liverpool existed before Benitez was manager? Just because he usually plays the more advanced role in a midfield/ on the right now doesnt mean he didnt play a more conventional center midfield position in the past when he would have to defend

    When Gerrard used to partner Hamann/Gary Mac/Murphy in the center of Midfield, he used to be up and down the pitch like a yo-yo, defending and attacking, and there is no doubt that defending was a large part of Houllier's tactics as whenver we went 1-0 up we would sit on it and all 11 players would have to defend... Now by my memory, under Houllier we won the league cup twice, the FA Cup, The Uefa Cup, the Super Cup and the Charity shield - Now If being an integral figure, in the center of midfield for a defensive team that wins 6 trophies is "doing rubbish" then you must have ****ing high standards. Again you can only give one example of him making a mistake standing in at right back whilst Smicer was off with cramp. Where as everyone else is quoting years worth of evidence and you just dismiss it saying its "a fact that whenever he has been given defensive duties at the highest level he has done rubbish" - thats not a fact, thats absolute *******s.
    Exactly he partnered Hamman/Mcallister - i wonder why he needs a holding player next to him? maybe because he is incapable of defending. All those cups you won were mickey mouse cups apart from maybe the FA cup. No-one actualyl cares about the Super Cup or charity shield and Uefa cup became a mickey mouse tournament when the CL was expanded. What about CL final first half, or Euro 2004 or CL extra time? these are big games when he hasnt had anyone to cover his arse and his defesive failing are quite apparent yet you just seem to ignore this. They conceded none against Leverkusen when Biscan was holding the midfield. Conceded one against Juve (more down to keeper error) when Biscan was there again. Same story against Chelsea. And then against Milan, when Gerrard is given the defensive duties - he concedes 3. Look at England - they conceded 6 goals in 4 games at Euro 04 with Gerrard as the DM. Look at the WC when a proper DM was playing and England only conceded 3 goals in 5 games. Yet you just dismiss all this as "absolute *******s"

    I reckon Gerrard will be playing right wing on Sunday, so if you actually have time to watch a game of football, watch the amount of help he gives Finnan at Right back. Also look at the amount he chases back and watch the tackles he makes and look how many times he wins back possesion.

    I can't even believe im arguing about this...
    Well if you think he's playing RW, then why did you say he will leave Neville on his arse?

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    (Original post by Raindance)
    I think we have, pages ago. It came down to a Chelsea fan arguing that the few occasions he's seen Gerrard holding he hasn't measured up to a Hamann or a Makalele. Thus meaning he cannot defend, or is "piss poor" at it, as is eloquently put. Then we have a fair few Liverpool fans pointing out that you don't need to be a specialist defensive midfielder to have defensive ability; that he has it in abundance as a result of his formulative years in such defensive positions. In short, that Gerrard has now a 'free' role (evolved from his box-to-box role throughout the years), and no longer has the need or mentality to exclusively sit.

    The point to be picked up on is his future position within the team, whether centrally or out wide, of which there are merits to both.
    Chelsea fan?? my you do assume a lot. You're wrong btw.

    Your argument is he can defend but he doesnt have the discipline to do it. Thats like saying a striker is good at attacking, but his off the ball movement is crap.

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    (Original post by kpg)
    Given our recent success, I'd be shocked if we changed the way we are playing at the moment except against really top oposition for whom Benitez prefers to play a 3 man central midfield as he also did at Valencia.
    Yes he liked to play a 3 man midfield with 2 holding players. I don't think Benitez would be stupid enough not to play a DM.
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    (Original post by ba_ba1)
    Exactly he partnered Hamman/Mcallister - i wonder why he needs a holding player next to him? maybe because he is incapable of defending. All those cups you won were mickey mouse cups apart from maybe the FA cup. No-one actualyl cares about the Super Cup or charity shield and Uefa cup became a mickey mouse tournament when the CL was expanded. What about CL final first half, or Euro 2004 or CL extra time? these are big games when he hasnt had anyone to cover his arse and his defesive failing are quite apparent yet you just seem to ignore this. They conceded none against Leverkusen when Biscan was holding the midfield. Conceded one against Juve (more down to keeper error) when Biscan was there again. Same story against Chelsea. And then against Milan, when Gerrard is given the defensive duties - he concedes 3. Look at England - they conceded 6 goals in 4 games at Euro 04 with Gerrard as the DM. Look at the WC when a proper DM was playing and England only conceded 3 goals in 5 games. Yet you just dismiss all this as "absolute *******s"
    I'll ignore all that, as most of it is, quite rightly, "absolute *******s". I'm sure kpg will show you where you've gone wrong in time. I lack the patience. I do, however, quite enjoy how you blame Gerrard's "defensive frailties" for leading us to the final. How dare he not play holding midfield when he's been instructed to do otherwise. Quick, let's sell him to Chelsea now! You claiming that our trophies are worthless and insignificant are not helping you, and will no doubt be met by (justified) abuse.

    Well if you think he's playing RW, then why did you say he will leave Neville on his arse?
    They (Gerrard and Kewell) switch positions occasionally when one's not having much luck.

    Chelsea fan?? my you do assume a lot. You're wrong btw.

    Your argument is he can defend but he doesnt have the discipline to do it. Thats like saying a striker is good at attacking, but his off the ball movement is crap.
    In which case I got the wrong impression from one of your early posts.

    No, listen carefully - both eyes on the monitor. He can defend. We have provided you countless reasons, countless examples, and somehow we're far more qualified to do so than you are. Some on this thread are season ticket holders, they see him week in week out. This does not mean we are bias, I'm trying my best to be objective, as are others. Review the posts pointing you out such, I'm not about to regurgitate what others have said for your benefit.

    No, it's not relative to your striker analogy. Any good striker has to have the attribute of positional sense and off the ball running. It's more like me being a meat eater. I eat it not because I can't not eat meat (I can and do go without), but because I enjoy it and what I've been conditioned to do.

    Yes he liked to play a 3 man midfield with 2 holding players. I don't think Benitez would be stupid enough not to play a DM.
    Get a grip and let it go. Benitez is his own man and manager, he knows what it takes and needs exponentially more than you do.
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    (Original post by Raindance)
    I'll ignore all that, as most of it is, quite rightly, "absolute *******s". I'm sure kpg will show you where you've gone wrong in time. I lack the patience. I do, however, quite enjoy how you blame Gerrard's "defensive frailties" for leading us to the final. How dare he not play holding midfield when he's been instructed to do otherwise. Quick, let's sell him to Chelsea now! You claiming that our trophies are worthless and insignificant are not helping you, and will no doubt be met by (justified) abuse.
    You don't seem to back up your claims. You just say it is absolute *******s? Care to explain why you think that? Go ahead and live in your dream world where the Uefa Cup and Charity Shield are the most coveted trohpies ever.





    In which case I got the wrong impression from one of your early posts.

    No, listen carefully - both eyes on the monitor. He can defend. We have provided you countless reasons, countless examples, and somehow we're far more qualified to do so than you are. Some on this thread are season ticket holders, they see him week in week out. This does not mean we are bias, I'm trying my best to be objective, as are others. Review the posts pointing you out such, I'm not about to regurgitate what others have said for your benefit.
    So thats your argument - "Gerrard can defend because i say so, and i must be right because i go to liverpool matches". You don't seem to back your argument up with anything - al you say is "he can defend".

    No, it's not relative to your striker analogy. Any good striker has to have the attribute of positional sense and off the ball running. It's more like me being a meat eater. I eat it not because I can't not eat meat (I can and do go without), but because I enjoy it and what I've been conditioned to do.
    Yes any good striker should have positional sense, the same way that if you claim someone is good at defending - they should have discipline - its a necessary attribute of being good at defending, and you admit gerrard hasnt got it.
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    (Original post by ba_ba1)
    You don't seem to back up your claims. You just say it is absolute *******s? Care to explain why you think that? Go ahead and live in your dream world where the Uefa Cup and Charity Shield are the most coveted trohpies ever.

    So thats your argument - "Gerrard can defend because i say so, and i must be right because i go to liverpool matches". You don't seem to back your argument up with anything - al you say is "he can defend".
    I don't constanty back myself up because it beggars belief why you're questioning, when you've been given the answers numerous times already in this thread. He has not been used as a defensive midfielder for the club in years, absolutely years. You cannot claim he's "piss poor", therefore, as he has not been allocated such responsibility. kpg has given you what he feels are Gerrard's weaknesses, and I fully agree with him. I know what Gerrard can and can't do because I watch him every flippin' week, not just the highlights. I know, we know, he knows, Rafa knows. You don't, evidently.

    My dream world of yesteryear was the UEFA Cup and the like. We had years of mediocrity, I wasn't alive the last time we had a bit about us. A Cup is a Cup, don't belittle it, they were our aims. Every fan of a real club celebrates what they have; better those trophies than none at all. Our present and future, however, is concerning bigger fish, so don't embarass yourself on my account.

    Yes any good striker should have positional sense, the same way that if you claim someone is good at defending - they should have discipline - its a necessary attribute of being good at defending, and you admit gerrard hasnt got it.
    Christ alive. Because he's not a defender! You can't be a defensive midfielder without discipline, but you can be a box-to-box/free player and be able to defend to a high standard. Understand? I'm not going to say that again.



    We're all sick of this point of discussion, let's change the direction.
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    (Original post by Raindance)
    I don't constanty back myself up because it beggars belief why you're questioning, when you've been given the answers numerous times already in this thread. He has not been used as a defensive midfielder for the club in years, absolutely years. You cannot claim he's "piss poor", therefore, as he has not been allocated such responsibility. kpg has given you what he feels are Gerrard's weaknesses, and I fully agree with him. I know what Gerrard can and can't do because I watch him every flippin' week, not just the highlights. I know, we know, he knows, Rafa knows. You don't, evidently.
    Years? CL final? He's been used in the position for England aswell. Rafa knows he can't defend - hence why he plays sissoko/hamman.




    Christ alive. Because he's not a defender! You can't be a defensive midfielder without discipline, but you can be a box-to-box/free player and be able to defend to a high standard. Understand? I'm not going to say that again.
    So he can defend to a high standard, but somehow when he plays for England he can't? Making a couple of tackles a match doesnt mean he can defend. Raul tracks back, Del Piero tracks backs, Camoranesi tracks back yet these players are all piss poor at defending.
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    ba_ba1, give up. The fact you're saying Gerrard can't defend is proof you don't really know much about football. And the reason Rafa plays Sissoko or Hamman is not because Stevie can't defend, but because it will give him more freedom to attack and roam the field, which he does so excellently.
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    Gerrard by some distance. The result of the poll tells its own story. No point arguing about it.
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    (Original post by ba_ba1)
    He play Hamman Sissoko because he needs someone who can defend in midfield. He obviosuyl thinks Gerrard is incapable of this.
    How can you say he doesn't think Gerrard can defend? You haven't asked him
    (Original post by ba_ba1)
    How can you say that most would say yes? you havn't asked them.
    It's called an opinion, much like your opinion that some would say he can't defend. It is possible, that we're both right. In fact, it's quite likely.
    Gosh, you're picky :rolleyes:

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    (Original post by G_H_G)
    Gerrard by some distance. The result of the poll tells its own story. No point arguing about it.
    Spoil sport! :p:
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    (Original post by One-Prophecy)
    ba_ba1, give up. The fact you're saying Gerrard can't defend is proof you don't really know much about football. And the reason Rafa plays Sissoko or Hamman is not because Stevie can't defend, but because it will give him more freedom to attack and roam the field, which he does so excellently.
    What so because my opinion is different from yours, you think i nkow nothing about football, and you must know everything? Please Shutup.

    He plays Sissoko/Hamman because he needs someone to cover Alonso's arse - he knows Gerrard is incapable of this - see CL final, euro 2004.
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    Get. Over. It. People
 
 
 
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