Free will vs Determinism Watch

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MadNatSci
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#41
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#41
(Original post by Adhsur)
Yes, that's really really interesting actually...the fact that there is nothing to disprove the possibility of something like that, and if anything evidence favours the existence of parallel universes!

But it does sound quite scary that another Rushda somewhere went to Afghanistan, had an illegal affair and then got stoned to death...

Would that still be "ME" though? If my copy did everything different as one of these possibilities, what's to say that that copy is me? just a genetic similarity?


I guess genetically you'd be the same. And I guess your personality would be similar because, though there are always arguments about this, I believe a certain part of your personality is genetically determined. (So there's a form of determinism right there then... hm...) Apart from that though - *shrug* is my best answer. hitchhiker 13 seems to know what she's talking about as far as the physics goes..

Anyone seen Sliding Doors? Apart from the fact that it's an excellent film, it uses these ideas.
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Adhsur
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#42
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(Original post by Tnacilppa)
It's mid-blowing. I don't think there could possibly be enough universes for all the combinations though. With 6 billion people interacting at some level I think it's impossible.
Yeah, indeed.

And if it's true, look at us in our sheltered lives not knowing the huge complexity of things.... :eek:
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hitchhiker_13
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#43
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(Original post by Tnacilppa)
If it's true there must be infinate other universes.

Also how would interaction work?

Our choices affect other people. Arrrrrrghhhhhhhhhhhh (language block here - you see )

Hang on, gonna try to express it...

World 1

I get out of bed. I go to London on a train. On the train I meet someone and we chat (I say I am going to see an art exhibition) and as a result he/she goes to the exhibition.

World 2

I don't get out of bed. The person doesn't go to the art exhibition.

---

So how does this work. For one person the other universe idea with the other option would work. However, the interaction of events would mess it up wouldn't it?

There is a world where you get out of bed and the person goes.
There is a world where you don't and they don't.
There are also probably worlds where you get out of bed and they still don't go, or you don't and they do.

So yes, there are an infinite number of universes, with no interconnection between them, they are entirely separate and occupy their own spacetime.
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MadNatSci
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#44
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#44
(Original post by Tnacilppa)
It's mid-blowing. I don't think there could possibly be enough universes for all the combinations though. With 6 billion people interacting at some level I think it's impossible.

I guess there would be an infinite number of universes, and the human brain can't cope with the concept of infinity...
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Adhsur
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#45
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#45
(Original post by Gnostic)
How so?

I argue that "God", like all metaphysics and mythology, does not exist externally but, instead, exists as a symbol of an archetype within the psyche. There is no angry god who is all-too-human living in the sky. God is a symbol of what is within. Likewise, one could spend millions of years search for "heaven” in the sky or in galaxies far away but one will not be able to find it. For "heaven" is a state of consciousness, not a place.

"All the gods and demons, Heavens and Hells are within us; are ourselves" (Joseph Campbell). “The Kingdom is within you” (Gospel of Luke, Gospel of Thomas). “Do not you not understand that you are all Angels, Invisibles, all those of the Midst, those of every region of them that are on the Right, all the Great Ones of the emanations of the Light with all their glory…” (Pistis Sophia). These symbols can be understood rationally, as in the case of analytical or Jungian psychology, which is the rational or analytical understanding of images produced autonomously from the unconscious and encounters with it. Analytical psychology can be seen as a philosophy of mythology.
Well then you are creating your own definition of God...if I say God by definition is the table, I can start assigning properties to this God such as "God is brown" (lol)...

But to accept the existence of God you have to first define it as an existing external being who has certain transcendent characteristics and did indeed create this world.
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Tnacilppa
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#46
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#46
(Original post by hitchhiker_13)
There is a world where you get out of bed and the person goes.
There is a world where you don't and they don't.
There are also probably worlds where you get out of bed and they still don't go, or you don't and they do.

So yes, there are an infinite number of universes, with no interconnection between them, they are entirely separate and occupy their own spacetime.
What about the person they then meet or don't meet who if I had gone I may have bumped into and stopped going or have encouraged to go? It depends whether you believe there could be an infinite amount of universes. I don't think there could be.
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Adhsur
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#47
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Did anyone watch that program on a while back about string theory?

We could eventually communicate with the beings in parallel universes using graviton signals...
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Nima
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#48
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(Original post by Adhsur)
Did anyone watch that program on a while back about string theory?

We could eventually communicate with the beings in parallel universes using graviton signals...
Yes I watched it, it was really interesting - just one of the reasons why I like Physics.
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hitchhiker_13
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#49
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(Original post by MadNatSci)
I Apart from that though - *shrug* is my best answer. hitchhiker 13 seems to know what she's talking about as far as the physics goes..

Anyone seen Sliding Doors? Apart from the fact that it's an excellent film, it uses these ideas.

Lol, thank-you, but don't give me too much credit. I find this topic interesting and have done a little reading into it, more on the physics than philosophy side, certainly, but I'm sure you would not have to look hard to find a better informed person - especially where you are!
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Adhsur
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#50
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#50
(Original post by Tnacilppa)
What about the person they then meet or don't meet who if I had gone I may have bumped into and stopped going or have encouraged to go? It depends whether you believe there could be an infinite amount of universes. I don't think there could be.
Well, infinity seems to be accepted by people in various contexts. Just because its incomprehendible doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Infinity must have participated in this universe - either this universe was here forever, or the creator of it was. Nothing can come from nothing.

I think if there is the probable idea that there must be an existing infinity, there may be a possibility of infinite universes ( I think if there are parallel universes, its quite likely there'll be a lot if noit infinite number of them).
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hitchhiker_13
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#51
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#51
(Original post by Tnacilppa)
What about the person they then meet or don't meet who if I had gone I may have bumped into and stopped going or have encouraged to go? It depends whether you believe there could be an infinite amount of universes. I don't think there could be.
Yes well I'm not convinced by the idea myself.
I have a problem with the concept of infinity (as a physical quantity, obviously mathematically it is sound) but most people believe the universe is infinte. It may be infinite as far as we can know, but this is not true infinity. I mean if you were measuring the size of the universe, would you say 1,2,3,4,5.......3454448674946085 683037859004, infinty? This is why I do not believe the universe is of infinite size.

An infinite number or worlds is slighty different. Again infinity here may mean more than we can possibly count, rather han being truly infinite...
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rIcHrD
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#52
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(Original post by corey)
But so does deteriminism, what becomes of morality in the determinist world? It is non existent.
Morality is preserved as is, because most people do not accept the proposition of causalism when applied to their minds, because those that do realise the complications of morality based on such a model and also because without consideration, within an illusion, the illusion appears real.

If you look outside you question you propose, it becomes apparent morality becomes inevitably a meaningless consideration.
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Tnacilppa
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#53
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(Original post by Adhsur)
Well, infinity seems to be accepted by people in various contexts. Just because its incomprehendible doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Infinity must have participated in this universe - either this universe was here forever, or the creator of it was. Nothing can come from nothing.

I think if there is the probable idea that there must be an existing infinity, there may be a possibility of infinite universes ( I think if there are parallel universes, its quite likely there'll be a lot if noit infinite number of them).
Well they'd be a bit rubbish - lots of people running around making generally (on average) bad choices. I mean if we believe that the choices we make as individuals are generally good, think about how terrible the other universes would be.

Imagine if instead of writing plays Shakespeare had gone into teaching.

Imagine if Einstein had decided he didn't like maths.

Imagine if we didn't think about these things.

Would make for a great world...
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Adhsur
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#54
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#54
(Original post by Tnacilppa)
Well they'd be a bit rubbish - lots of people running around making generally (on average) bad choices. I mean if we believe that the choices we make as individuals are generally good, think about how terrible the other universes would be.

Imagine if instead of writing plays Shakespeare had gone into teaching.

Imagine if Einstein had decided he didn't like maths.

Imagine if we didn't think about these things.

Would make for a great world...
But the thing is, in these parallel universes there'd be some really really bad worlds and some really paradisey ones too? Every possibility.
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Tnacilppa
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#55
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#55
(Original post by Adhsur)
But the thing is, in these parallel universes there'd be some really really bad worlds and some really paradisey ones too? Every possibility.
And we are stuck in an average one?

Perhaps. It's certainly an interesting theory...
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Adhsur
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#56
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#56
(Original post by Tnacilppa)
And we are stuck in an average one?

Perhaps. It's certainly an interesting theory...
Maybe.

And then there'd be the questions of why we are in this one and not the others? Why "we" can only experience this life in this world and not the other conscious forms of our selves elsewhere.

For all we know, copies of us could be literally a cm away from us, and yet we cannot reach them!

Anyway peepsies I'd love to stay and discuss, but i think I'd better go to sleep. I'll throw in another question in a day or so - I enjoy this

Thanks for all the replies so far.

Goodnight!!!! Sweet dreams.
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Tnacilppa
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Perhaps people who suffer from schizophrenia are really two different forms of themself in the same world.
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hitchhiker_13
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#58
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(Original post by Adhsur)
Maybe.

And then there'd be the questions of why we are in this one and not the others? Why "we" can only experience this life in this world and not the other conscious forms of our selves elsewhere.

For all we know, copies of us could be literally a cm away from us, and yet we cannot reach them!

Well, not "literally a cm away from us".
How pedantic am I?
Between us and a parallel universe, concepts such as a cm between us are meaningless as they exist in a wholly different space and are in no way connected.
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rIcHrD
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#59
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(Original post by Adhsur)
Maybe.

And then there'd be the questions of why we are in this one and not the others? Why "we" can only experience this life in this world and not the other conscious forms of our selves elsewhere.

For all we know, copies of us could be literally a cm away from us, and yet we cannot reach them!

Anyway peepsies I'd love to stay and discuss, but i think I'd better go to sleep. I'll throw in another question in a day or so - I enjoy this

Thanks for all the replies so far.

Goodnight!!!! Sweet dreams.
It's for reasons like this I said, the solution of 'free-will' produces more problems than it solves.
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Tnacilppa
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#60
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Me is off to bedfordshire too. Goodnight everyone!

Interesting discussion.
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