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EI_123
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#241
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#241
(Original post by vienna95)
bearing in mind Gran(the citizens of the US, Iraq and of the democratic world) relies on you(the US military/administration) to deal with it.
I'm getting a little tired; do you really, really, really believe that Iraq people relies on US military about anything?
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serious narb
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#242
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#242
yes
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Howard
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#243
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#243
(Original post by bono)
unless the country has been severly attacked to show CONCLUSIVE REASONS, then it is.
Not necessarily.

Image country A going to war with country B for reason C (which arguably isn't a strong reason) When country A invades B it discovers fact D (maybe that country B has killed a million people in deathcamps)

Doesn't that make the fact that reason C was wrong a bit academic? Doesn't fact D supercede the previous justification even if that justification was wrong? To my mind it would.
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Howard
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#244
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#244
(Original post by bono)
Iraq didn't attack America beforehand. :rolleyes:
So? Hitler's Germany didn't attack America beforehand either. Does that make the US's efforts in liberating Europe any less valid? Were they wrong to do so? I think not.
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username9816
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#245
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#245
(Original post by Howard)
Not necessarily.

Image country A going to war with country B for reason C (which arguably isn't a strong reason) When country A invades B it discovers fact D (maybe that country B has killed a million people in deathcamps)

Doesn't that make the fact that reason C was wrong a bit academic? Doesn't fact D supercede the previous justification even if that justification was wrong? To my mind it would.
Why would it, it was never their intention though, Reason c was.

And BTW - I don't understand where the war has turned out good, in my view , like all wars, there is only one ending - tragedy.
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username9816
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#246
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#246
(Original post by Howard)
So? Hitler's Germany didn't attack America beforehand either. Does that make the US's efforts in liberating Europe any less valid? Were they wrong to do so? I think not.
Yes but hitler was starting wars and all sorts against loads of other countries and trying to rule.....
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Howard
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#247
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#247
(Original post by bono)
Why would it, it was never their intention though, Reason c was.

And BTW - I don't understand where the war has turned out good, in my view , like all wars, there is only one ending - tragedy.
I can't understand your reasoning. If 1 million people were discovered in death camps in N.Korea then surely the liberation of those people is a justification of war even if the reason for war was entirely different and of course albeit that the justification came after the event.

Only one ending? Tragedy? Well, ask yourself how tragic the removal of Sadaam was for the many tortured at his hands.
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Howard
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#248
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#248
(Original post by bono)
Yes but hitler was starting wars and all sorts against loads of other countries and trying to rule.....
So, unless a regime actually starts a war with another country the rest of the world should sit on it's hands and watche while that regime oppresses and kills certain sections of it's society?
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username9816
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#249
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#249
(Original post by Howard)
I can't understand your reasoning. If 1 million people were discovered in death camps in N.Korea then surely the liberation of those people is a justification of war even if the reason for war was entirely different and of course albeit that the justification came after the event.

Only one ending? Tragedy? Well, ask yourself how tragic the removal of Sadaam was for the many tortured at his hands.
Yet these same people could have been killed by the war anyway, hence they die instead of having the chance to live.
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username9816
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#250
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#250
(Original post by Howard)
So, unless a regime actually starts a war with another country the rest of the world should sit on it's hands and watche while that regime oppresses and kills certain sections of it's society?
But the war against hitler was more justified than the Iraqi war, it had clear reasons and it was more serious as Hitler was invading other countries etc.
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Howard
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#251
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#251
(Original post by bono)
Yet these same people could have been killed by the war anyway, hence they die instead of having the chance to live.
Well, I guess the politicians of the world should stop making any form of decision for risk of some injustice and should instead spend their time sitting on their fat behinds moralizing.

Maybe they could sign up for the OU's summer philosophy camp and the rest of us can all sit around talking about boring things like justice and liberty without ever having to lift a digit to ensure it prevails.
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Howard
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#252
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#252
(Original post by bono)
But the war against hitler was more justified than the Iraqi war, it had clear reasons and it was more serious as Hitler was invading other countries etc.
So you just want the US to be more "selective" of it's opponents? To pigeon hole regimes in order of nastiness and act (or by your logic "do nothing") accordingly? Is that it?
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ben2111
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#253
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#253
(Original post by vienna95)
bearing in mind Gran(the citizens of the US, Iraq and of the democratic world) relies on you(the US military/administration) to deal with it.
Open your eyes. This is not reality but the dream world people have made for people like you. Nobody wants, needs or relies on the US forces in Iraq.
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ben2111
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#254
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#254
(Original post by Howard)
So? Hitler's Germany didn't attack America beforehand either. Does that make the US's efforts in liberating Europe any less valid? Were they wrong to do so? I think not.
Hitler was an agressor who had already shown his definite will to subject as many countries as possible. That has not happened ever since (except the US invasions in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Nicaragua, Guatemala etc.)
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ben2111
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#255
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#255
(Original post by Howard)
I can't understand your reasoning. If 1 million people were discovered in death camps in N.Korea then surely the liberation of those people is a justification of war even if the reason for war was entirely different and of course albeit that the justification came after the event.

Only one ending? Tragedy? Well, ask yourself how tragic the removal of Sadaam was for the many tortured at his hands.
Do you really think one man can be a valid reason for 10.000 to die? If the allied forces had insisted their goal was capturing Hitler everybody would have loved. The propaganda of manhunts (Milosevic, Osama, Saddam) is rather new and mad for a media dominated society: it is easier to understand there is ONE enemy instead of understanding the complex international systems
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HasanB
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#256
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#256
Ive got a question, what is the defeinition of an oppressive regime, i think we can all agree that saddam wasnt exactly a lovely guy, but neither is robert mugabe of zimbabwe, there is a lot of oppression goin on there and yet the US does nothin, why ?
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Howard
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#257
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#257
(Original post by ben2111)
Hitler was an agressor who had already shown his definite will to subject as many countries as possible. That has not happened ever since (except the US invasions in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Nicaragua, Guatemala etc.)
Again, we're back to the "you can't intervene unless that country invades someone else" ********.

US "invasions" of Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Nicaragua, Guatemala etc. How the hell can you talk about Hitler's attempt at European domination and the US' intervention in these countries in the same breath?
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Howard
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#258
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#258
(Original post by HasanB)
Ive got a question, what is the defeinition of an oppressive regime, i think we can all agree that saddam wasnt exactly a lovely guy, but neither is robert mugabe of zimbabwe, there is a lot of oppression goin on there and yet the US does nothin, why ?
Because the US does not have a standing army of 3 million men available for deployment anywhere and everywhere in the world. For Christ's sake, even the mighty US military had to call up the National Reserve to take part in Iraq.
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ben2111
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#259
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#259
(Original post by Howard)
Again, we're back to the "you can't intervene unless that country invades someone else" ********.

US "invasions" of Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Nicaragua, Guatemala etc. How the hell can you talk about Hitler's attempt at European domination and the US' intervention in these countries in the same breath?
Why can I not? The ideology is different and Hitler was a complete idiot in his own way. But the americans also try to achieve as much global influence as possible, smartly using institutions like the UN for their legitimation.
And what was the amrican official goal in the Vietnam war? Stopping communism. So, isn´t that as ideologic as Hitler was?
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ben2111
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#260
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#260
(Original post by HasanB)
Ive got a question, what is the defeinition of an oppressive regime, i think we can all agree that saddam wasnt exactly a lovely guy, but neither is robert mugabe of zimbabwe, there is a lot of oppression goin on there and yet the US does nothin, why ?
I brought this point up before, the answer was the first time as well "we can´t fight everywhere in the world" hahaha
it´s obvious, there are spots of interest and in Zimbabwe there is, unfortunately, none of them! Only some 20 million starving black people sitting on useless (American view) land. Sorry, i always get very bitter when it comes to the international policies towards Africa.
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